What does "Good Self-help" Look Like with Anne Peterson

[00:00:00] At Seek Safely, it's our mission to empower seekers to have a safe and meaningful self-improvement journey. Why do we care? Seeking to be your best self is an amazing, beautiful human impulse that has led us to create art, invent technology, tell amazing stories, and reach the moon.

[00:00:19] But we saw the dark side of self-help in 2009, when a recklessly run self-improvement retreat led to the death of three people, including my sister, Kirby Brown. We want people to seek, to dream their big dreams and chase their beautiful goals. But we want to make sure they're safe along the way. This podcast is about education and empowerment, and getting real about the promises and problems of self-help.

[00:00:46] We talk with people who understand and care about the self-help industry, and everyone it touches. I'm Jean Brown. I'm Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle. And this is the Seek Safely Podcast. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Seek Safely Podcast. I am Jean Brown. I'm here with my co-host, Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle. What's up, Glenn?

[00:01:14] It's me. It's Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle. And we're finally getting really rolling on this season of the Seek Safely Podcast, this long-awaited season. We're a few episodes in now. I'm so proud of this. Yeah, I know. We finally kind of got our stuff together. Our stuff. Our chef. We did. And yeah, trying to get back into some regular schedule here.

[00:01:37] My good friend, Zachary, who listens to the podcast, and he is much smarter than I am. And I'm fine with that. I've accepted that. He's very into philosophy and stuff. And he listened to our episode about Deepak and the Epstein files. And he says, I loved the episode. However, you got to stop saying, he's telling this to me. You got to stop saying it begs the question. Apparently, I didn't know what that actually meant.

[00:02:06] Apparently, I've been misusing it the entire time. So if I launch into it, it begs the question. You got to catch me. You got to throw a flag on the play. Because apparently, I'm not quite sure how to use that expression. Or do a shot. Or do a shot. Or do a shot. Well, that's... Oh, now we know the trick. Y'all are drinking.

[00:02:27] We did this in high school with one of our history teachers. We made a bingo card for all of his catchphrases. Which was hilarious, except that he found it. And then he... Oh, no. I hope. He acted offended, but I hope that he was secretly like... I mean, I feel like if I was a teacher, I think I would love something like that. But I don't know. Do you think people have like bingo cards for us? Like Glenn and Gene bingo cards?

[00:02:54] I would be so flattered. I think that would be amazing. What would be on your... That would mean that they're really... I wonder what would be on your bingo card, on the Gene bingo card. Really listening. I mean, deep sarcasm probably would be on there. Deep sarcasm. Not just standard sarcasm. It's deep sarcasm. Not just regular sarcasm. Just like next level sarcasm. I don't know. I wonder what would be on mine. Mentions James Arthur Ray. Yes, definitely. And then mentions that he's mentioning James Arthur Ray. Yes, yes, yes. Those would both be on there for sure. Okay, did you time that, Gene? How long? I know.

[00:03:24] Two minutes and 50 seconds. Oh my gosh. Anyway. I listen to everyone too. Yes. So we have a guest with us for this episode. We have our friend, Anne Peterson. Hi, Ann. Hello. How is it going? It's going. It's going good. In a world gone mad, I feel pretty good that I'm here. Yeah. So, Ann. So, Ann. So, Ann.

[00:03:52] So, Ann. You are the host of Confronting the Line podcast. We've had you on our podcast before, but I will put links to all your stuff in the show notes in case people are not familiar with you. Yeah. So, yes. We had our episode about Deepak. We had a couple of episodes.

[00:04:18] We also had a guest, Chris Shelton on, who indulged Dr. Doyle's love of talking about Scientology, which gets like kind of weird and dark sometimes. So, we thought it would be nice to do an episode to kind of bring us back to really the roots of Seek Safely as an organization.

[00:04:38] Um, because we've always been an organization that while we want to kind of alert people to the potential dangers in the industry, we also want to honor the fact that seeking is an admirable, uh, aim and, and, you know, an admirable activity.

[00:04:58] And we want to help provide some guidance for people for how to do that in a safe way. So, we thought we'd do an episode just talking again a little bit about what does safe seeking look like? Um, and, Ann, you've really been in the thick of that. So, we thought you would be kind of the perfect person to help us talk about that. So. Thank you.

[00:05:19] Uh, I, I've always been real sensitive to the, uh, I mean, it's not really a criticism, but the, the observation of man, do you guys like any self-help? Um, do you see any place for it? And, um, I've always thought that was an interesting question because it would be real easy to establish an organization that said self-help sucks.

[00:05:44] And we don't like any of it. And that's never really been seek safety thing. I would actually not be a part of that organization. And there are people out there kind of waving that banner around, you know, books and things that people have written. Well, it gets, it gets implied. So, one of the biggest things that I've seen in my own deconstruction after 30 years of being a leader, a facilitator, a manager, a, you know, host, of, um, coach to a lot of guru, at least guru-want.

[00:06:14] And that we kind of forget. So when we're talking about X, everything else is sort of negated by default. So when we're talking about like, I'm, I'm currently on this whole tirade about the cliche, a hundred percent responsibility. Responsibility in some twisted version is in every self-help lexicon that I can find. Right.

[00:06:39] Right. And, um, you know, so we think when we're talking about that and we're distinguishing that and we're, you know, and it's great. Like there's some really powerful ideas in there. Like the idea of taking personal responsibility for situations. Like, come on. Yeah, that's great. Right. And then there's this kind of fantasy thing that if everybody on the planet just took personal responsibility for themselves, the whole planet would work, which by the way is not true, but that's a different podcast.

[00:07:03] So that's it because it feels good and it sounds good and it sounds wholesome and it sounds whatever. Right. So everybody gloms onto that. And the biggest thing that I find practitioners is missing. They don't know the dark side. They don't know the negative side effects.

[00:07:21] They don't know that people with that particular one can take too much responsibility to the point where they're overburdened and harmed, actually harmed. And so when we talk about something, we're kind of not talking about everything else. And one of the things I teach practitioners now a lot is like, look, it's on you when you introduce an idea or a notion or in landmark, we call them distinctions, which isn't the accurate use of that word. Red flag, they rechange meanings of words.

[00:07:52] So, but it's on the practitioner to say, now, look, here's where the healthy use for this is. And here's the unhealthy use. And I got that from you guys because you were the first one. And so I'm coming out, I'm realizing what I had just given 30 years of my life to is probably large amount of bullshit. And lots of people were being harmed. And I'm like, I'm 30 years older. I'm like, I don't know what to do.

[00:08:18] And then I remember when I got introduced to your mom and then started reading up and talking with you guys. I was like, wait, here are people who actually say the other side too, which is no, self-help is important. Self-help matters.

[00:08:32] And that was like an island for me because I was in the middle of the cognitive dissonance of, oh my gosh, it's everything I've been teaching is bad. It's hurting people. People are being hurt. But most of it, not intentionally, but that makes it even harder to grapple with. So then where do you go?

[00:08:50] And so that's why I am, you know, number one fan. I'm remaking my new business and new platform literally to be a functional marketplace that expresses the ideals of the safe practitioner promise. And because self-help matters, we needed it. It fills a lot of need and some big gaps.

[00:09:19] But as I've learned, you know, in working with you guys, it's just largely no guardrails and very little knowledge and understanding and training. I mean, in the organization I worked for, which is one of the larger ones in terms of international training and development company with 44 offices worldwide and over 400 staff and 40,000 volunteers, something like that. Anyway, I was close. So to back in the day, they're not nearly that size now.

[00:09:47] But, and I, trauma informed, trauma is not a thing. It's a choice. Don't you know, Glenn? This is what I'm told. So that was sarcasm in case nobody can read our faces. But it's, yeah. So anyway, so that's what I've always appreciated. But it wouldn't surprise me that if you're speaking out about the harms in the space, everybody assumes, you know, sticks you in that binary.

[00:10:17] Oh, they're on this side over here. But reality doesn't happen in binaries. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think, you know, part of the difficulty is that the, I mean, there is, it's so easy to point out what's wrong. Right? There's a lot to look at and go, oh my God, like that's exploitative. This is dangerous.

[00:10:42] This is, you know, lacking trauma informed perspective. It's very, very easy to poke holes. So it's easy to kind of get stuck doing that. Plus it's highly rewarded in our current system. You guys brought this up in your last episode about the Epstein files really well. It's highly rewarded. The algorithms reward that.

[00:11:05] So it's to get, even if you want to talk about solutions or you want to talk about imagining new ways and different ways to do things or to put in, you want to talk about what's possible in the industry. You got to talk about the other side to get the attention so you can talk about what you want to talk about. And that's, that's tough.

[00:11:23] Yeah, it's also really, my observation too, is it's also really easy to talk about how problematic certain gurus or programs are after something terrible has happened.

[00:11:36] But before something very terrible and, and, and very public happens, I think our culture kind of loves to give a pass to, to whether figures or programs on the basis of like, well, they're not harming anybody because they haven't quote unquote harmed anybody, at least not in a, in a big public way. I was thinking about this recently. I'll take 30 seconds to tell you this. Like I was thinking about this recently.

[00:12:01] So it's, it's one of my dreams in life to have my own trauma program, to have an actual facility, like an actual physical place that, that, that people can come. And, and so my, my girlfriend and I are, are frequently looking at the websites of places like addiction recovery centers and, and, and, and we're, you know, kind of see what their programs are like, what their facilities are like and, and, and whatnot and how all this works.

[00:12:28] And some of the, and some of the more hardcore addiction recovery centers are, I mean, they're, when I say hardcore, they're hardcore, they're work camps. Like they're, they're ranches out in the middle of nowhere where, you know, people come and, and, and, and, and, and the dividing line between what would happen in a cult, what we would call a cult or a high control group. And what would happen in a lot of these places is very, very, right. However, they get, you know, they kind of get this pass. Well, they're doing a good thing.

[00:12:58] They're helping people recover from addictions. Okay. But so that's what NXIVM would have said about itself. And that's what a lot of people who went through NXIVM said about NXIVM, right? That's what a lot of people who go through Scientology say, like, man, like it, I mean, Kiersey Alley famously said, it saved my life from substance addiction. Right.

[00:13:21] So again, like, I think after something terrible goes wrong publicly, like, so, you know, we hear about it when something terrible happens at one of these recovery places. And then we're like, oh man, take a look at that program. It was so controlling. And it was so, it was basically a cult who, who could have possibly seen this. So we have this problem where, again, like we, we consider the problem to be the big public thing that went wrong.

[00:13:47] But I mean, Jean, you and I have talked about this a lot that, I mean, NXIVM was problematic long before the sex cult stuff, right? Yeah. And did way more damage, I'll bet. Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm finding with, with Landmark is, you know, my book was about the source, Werner, you know, in my experience of working directly with him and then blah, blah, blah, whatever. You can read the book to get the story. But it was just about that little piece.

[00:14:13] And then when it came out, all of a sudden, I mean, for a solid year, it's just been two, this is my two-year anniversary actually right now, this, in this week here. And all of a sudden these people are coming forward with all these harms and all this damage that I was just like, I was like, what?

[00:14:33] You know, that, and it's, and a lot of it is very, like people will say to me, that happens in all big organizations, you know, that people verbally abuse each other and that they, you know, overwork you and underpay you. And so, so what? Like, so what? And I'm like, well, how long are we going to say so what? You know, how many were, what?

[00:14:56] Why are you, like the moment I become aware that it's hopefully before somebody's dead, then that's, you know, that's why I eventually was like, I had to speak up and it's really dangerous to speak up against landmark. But I couldn't, I couldn't be complicit anymore because that's how it felt, right? And that was when the kind of a bigger thing, like people were being physically harmed and, you know, by the source, that was the revelation.

[00:15:26] Well, and then also landmark treated me really in a really shifty, shitty way. So that also was part of my waking up. Like I thought I was part of the family and they were like, nope, we're done with you. Goodbye. You know, drop everything you've ever created and don't ever speak about us or what you did again. I'm like, what? I just spent 30 years getting the most premier training that I could, you know, be a elite performer in the world. And you're telling me I can't use any of that? So, but that was kind of, that's like a moment of betrayal or pain.

[00:15:57] But the harm way before that, and just now out of a work we're doing with Rachel Bernstein and our healthy healing group, I'm like, my husband and I are, because he was on staff for 20 years. And we're really dealing with what we got conditioned and trained in that is not helpful. It's harmful to our nervous systems. It's harmful to our ability to perform and function.

[00:16:21] The amount of staff members I've talked to that can't, that are working minimum wage, nothing jobs because they can't, they literally can't handle anything else in terms of their nervous system. And they're, you know, yeah, so it's, there's a way, you're so right on, Glenn. Like, I'm just highlighting what you're saying. Like, you're so right on. I think one of the lessons that this kind of, what both of you are saying that in terms of like, how do we seek safely?

[00:16:51] You know, there are some like things to be aware of and be careful about and then other things to look for. I think one of the kind of big lessons is both for seekers and would-be practitioners, good intentions are not enough to prevent you from being harmed and to prevent you from causing harm.

[00:17:12] So, you know, and that's just something that everybody has to be aware of because we all think that we have the best intentions or that the person that we're, you know, looking to for guidance has good intentions. You know, we make these assumptions about the best of intentions and it's just not enough.

[00:17:32] Well, and a related thing that happens as well is when something goes wrong, there's this temptation to say like, well, clearly that person did not have good intentions and that was the problem all along. Like, so for example, I mean, we were talking about James Arthur a moment ago, but I think, I don't know if James had bad intentions.

[00:17:56] I think that he was in over his head and I think he was breathtakingly naive and maybe not the sharpest knife in the drawer in the first place. But we do this thing where we're like, well, the problem is malignant narcissists like Keith Raniere, which don't get me wrong, is a problem. But we kind of do this, that that's kind of a way of preserving the dichotomy in our heads of like, well, if the intentionality is good, then it's going to be okay, right?

[00:18:25] Like, like good intentions will really make for a good outcome. NXIVM is an interesting example as well, where a lot of the people who were in it for a long time, they kind of, they could even see fault with Keith. But because the intention of the organization and the intention of the movement was so valuable to them and they felt it was so important, they were able to, you know, overlook some of those faults and problems.

[00:18:54] And again, it's just, that's, that's a case of the good intentions actually becoming a problem because you start ignoring real, real issues and faults. Well, in a, you do a cost benefit analysis and you think the benefits outweigh the costs, but here's the, here's the other thing that's happening in there.

[00:19:11] You just gave a really good example and Glenn can put the psychological words to it, but people start to misidentify the source used in its normal way, not the way we're using it, of their intentions and work. So I can be, there's lots of people, this is the biggest thing I deal with in Landmark actually, is people are like, well, I knew Werner was kind of an asshole and I even heard he was abusive.

[00:19:39] And I read that outrageous betrayal book and saw the 60 minutes thing in 1990, but his work still like did more good than bad, right? Okay. Maybe, you know, I'm pretty deep into that exploration right now, but, but they, and then they think that the organization or the teachings or the leader is the source of the good intention rather than themselves.

[00:20:07] Like they don't own, I know lots of people who did as Landmark stuff and went and have done amazing things in the world with it. The Hunger Project, which basically Werner started as I'm pretty convinced. I mean, what he was doing, you know, in terms of his conscious aware, but who knows? I wasn't part of that, but for him, it was an enrollment tool. It was a way to get attention. This is before the internet. You had to do pretty crazy things.

[00:20:32] So he put a million, he went Harry Krishna style and put people on street corners everywhere, filling out these cards, declaring the end of hunger. Right? So we'll, it worked really well because people go, well, that's pretty amazing. Like, it was amazing you're standing out here declaring the end of hunger. Of course we'll find your little card. Why are you doing this? Oh, well, let me tell you about the S training. It was a marketing tool. But the woman and the people who took the Hunger Project in 19, Werner has had nothing.

[00:20:59] And I know this very firsthand because anyway, one of the, well, the CEOs is one of my best friends. They've never even spoken to Werner after 1990. Like, you know, he was like, gave it over to this one woman and said, that's yours, run with it. And then they evolved it and they developed it and they operate in 13 countries, last I heard, and they are doing some amazing work. But it's completely grown and evolved and changed from what it was.

[00:21:29] And then people will still go, Werner did that. Oh, Werner did not do that. The people who took that pledge seriously and then gave their life's work to that, those are the ones that did that. The ones that raised money, the ones that, and I can give you story after story like that. So it's this, where it all gets collapsed, like my identity gets collapsed with the doctrine, with the organization or the leader. And that doesn't happen by accident.

[00:21:58] There's a lot of mechanisms in place, whether they're understood even by the perpetrators or not, because they're not for the most part. That's why I believe so strongly in educating practitioners, because they unwittingly become harmful, guru-y people. Because mostly they're hiding out behind their good intentions and they're getting swayed.

[00:22:23] But anyway, so it's complicated and there's a lot of parts in there. And, you know, what I love about the education arm of Seek Safely is like, we're going to educate consumers. We've also got to educate practitioners. What are those pitfalls? How do you fall into that? How does that happen that I start out with this really amazing piece of information or work that I want to share with the world?

[00:22:49] And then this organization builds up around me that, you know, and pretty soon we're harming people. Or I'm doing things, you know, even that I wouldn't have thought I would do. But now I have some fame and some money and everybody's listening to every word that comes out of my mouth. Like it's, you know, the second coming, third coming. I don't know however many times Jesus has come. But that... Well, it's almost Easter, so I don't know.

[00:23:16] Yeah, but we give over our agency and we don't know we've done that. So this question that we're talking about of, so what does good self-help or safe self-help actually look like? It's not unconnected to the question that we bat around in my field a lot of like, okay, so take inpatient psychiatric units as an example. A lot of people have had really bad experiences with inpatient psychiatric care.

[00:23:46] It's rarely the highlight of anybody's life. And we can agree that, you know, for the most part when, you know, when people establish an inpatient psych unit, nobody's trying to construct a prison and no one's trying to construct an environment where somebody's going to have a bad time or get worse. But that absolutely happens.

[00:24:08] And so the question that gets kind of tossed around in my circles is like, all right, so if we were going to make an inpatient unit that didn't suck or a rehab program that didn't suck and didn't kind of turn into a work camp or a prison, like what would that look like? And we have to kind of start out from that premise of like, okay, it's not enough that we're just asking the question of like, our intentions are good and we're being responsible and we're asking the question. Like, that's not enough.

[00:24:36] Like, we have to take really seriously what are the risks. And, you know, and you really brought up as we were prepping this episode, you really brought up one of the important pieces of it. It's like, well, boy, maybe one of the most important things is a responsible teacher or even a responsible program, responsible psychiatric unit. It doesn't promise outcomes.

[00:25:00] Like, we start out from that premise that, you know, man, you know, if we start from the place of, okay, this is what will happen as a result of this, then we're already on shaky ground. That's my number one. I'm not sure if it's on our red flag list or not. Oh, no. Yeah, they do. I have our red flag, green flag thing that people get when they go to the SeekSafely.org and sign up to join the newsletter, you'll get this fire.

[00:25:30] I just fetch you guys constantly all the time. Anyway, but the Program Guru event book promises a solution. Now, you guys have it to all of your problems, but I would say promises a solution.

[00:25:43] It doesn't have to be because, I mean, as I understand it in the legal profession, the medical profession, and even the, you know, therapeutic profession, psychology, and, you know, the credentialed, like the real ones, you cannot, you can lose your license for that. And there's a reason for that, guys.

[00:26:04] So if you're watching an ad or you're watching a YouTube and somebody says, hey, come join my thing, I always use, because he's the most outrageous one I've seen, Mr. Twin Flames, come do my thing and you'll find your twin thing. I mean, he's the most, like, ridiculous. I just rewatched the Amazon version of that document. I love it. God, the twin flame thing is nuts. Can we do an episode about that? We did. It is twisted. I don't know. Anyway, it's bananas.

[00:26:29] But it was watching that where I got this thing because I'm like, I could, I've trained enough guru-y people and, and look, I used to construct those promises for some of those courses, right? And I was watching that and I could see, minus the guy's obvious psychopathy or, I mean, he's nutbirds. He's crazy. I'm sorry. I know that's my opinion, not a technical term. I'm not qualified to say, but watching it, it's pretty clear something's not right about that guy.

[00:26:57] But that aside, I could see how the actions of that group grew and he got all this popularity and he got, he had to deal with the promise called, you do this, you're going to find your twin flame. And until he now has people having sex change operations because he got, you know, messages for who goes with who and who's the man and who's the woman and all that. And so now that people are literally changing their bodies, having surgery to follow what he said. But why is he saying that? Because he had that promise.

[00:27:26] The whole, his entire empire is built on that promise. And I, it, it seems like it goes in one of two ways. So that's an example where the, the guru has to live up to the promise. And so they go to extremes or the other way they do it is when, you know, they, they put it off on the, on the user. That, well, you didn't do it right. Or you don't really mean it.

[00:27:51] You don't really want it hard enough, which then messes with people in a different way. Yeah. You're not committed enough. Yeah. And so, and then that, you know, so either you've, you've, you know, done something very extreme, like something very physically dangerous or something really life altering. Like you've, you know, had a, had a gender reassignment surgery that you maybe didn't actually want.

[00:28:16] And, um, or you're getting stuck in this cycle of blaming yourself for not being good enough, not being committed enough, not, um, you know, meaning it enough. Like, yeah. Which is also what happens, like a lot of the, you know, former, particularly former program leaders and staff, like that's the level where you're really in the cultish environment, the destructive cult aspects of Landmark. Cause when you get into that, if you're just participating in courses, you might, you'll probably escape relatively unscathed.

[00:28:46] You'll have a bunch of tools that don't necessarily work the way I promised to work, but you probably won't be harmed significantly. And what happens though, when you fail, you don't, you don't think to go to the tool. You don't think to go to the leader. You're like, something's wrong with me. I just can't transform. I can't transform. My friend Eliezer Sobel has this fantastic book. It's one of my favorite books, 99th Monkey.

[00:29:13] And why I love it is because he, he had a paper in the, I don't know when it was the nineties or whatnot, but he was the editor for this like magazine that reviewed all these spiritual movements. Right. So he spent like his whole adult life following all these gurus and spiritual. And his book is so real and so great and so funny, but he talks about, he does all this stuff and that, but he keeps ending up. He's a Jewish guy from New York. He's still the same schmuck.

[00:29:40] And so he's like, okay, well maybe the next one I'll transform. Maybe the next, you know, like, and he just talks about it so honestly and so simply. I just, that's why I love that book so much because that's what it's really like. So, okay. So you guys want to know what my solution is? Cause I did come up with this, with the solution. So if you can't, because people have asked me, well, if I can't promise promises, how am I supposed to make sales? How am I supposed to get, get people interested?

[00:30:10] And, you know, marketing, right? You know, show people the problem and then show them how you're the solution to the problem. I hate that whole line. Can we just throw that out? But anyway, what you do, I literally went back to my carpet sales days. I started thinking about, cause when I was 20, somebody took me under their wing. I'm a young single mother, you know, been on my own since I was 16, struggling to get by, you know, working a couple jobs to, you know, whatever. And she's like, I'm going to teach you sales and then you'll be safe.

[00:30:39] You'll be able to always take care of yourself. And which has ended up being true by the way. And so she started sending me these sales trainings. No thanks. You're like, I'm just looking. That wasn't like, that was a big book at the time. This is like 1992 or something, you know? Anyway, but, and I sold in her carpet stores and never did anybody come in and I go, oh, you have a family of four? Well, I promise you that if you buy this carpet, this brand, you, your family will be closer.

[00:31:08] They will start communicating again. They will hang out. I didn't know. I'm like, okay, you need one with a really tight twist. I can't forget this knowledge for some weird reason. Anyway, you need a really tight twist or maybe a Berber. Berber was a new thing, the Navista. And you need a really good Scotch card and we got to put a really good pad underneath there. You sell features and benefits. So now there's a thin line. You got to be careful because you can articulate a feature and benefit like a promise.

[00:31:34] No, it's like, look, I'm going to teach you, you know, if you do my workshop, you are going to learn how to use all those extra features of Excel spreadsheet. What you're going to do with that, what you're going to produce? I don't know. What do you think you would produce? See, the outcome is a collaboration. That's why you can't promise it. Because it's not yours to promise. It's somewhat of a collaboration.

[00:32:02] But in the end, the outcome lives over with the participant. That's up to them. And they can sit through your whole miraculous transformational workshop and think it's the dumbest thing in the world and walk away and never do a thing with it. And that's totally legit. And it's up to them. I think part of that is like you're offering something, right?

[00:32:22] And so both from the consumer perspective and from the practitioner perspective, you can offer some tools and they might work. They might not, right? But it's never, like you're saying, promising an outcome. It's just here's something you can try and hopefully it'll be good for you.

[00:32:43] So, well, like I'm offering, we're launching our Authors Roadmap, a set of services and programs to help self-publish authors to walk through the various steps. And we're like the first one, well, what we're going to do in this program is we're going to architect out your whole book. We're going to work with you. We're going to walk beside you and we're going to work with you to have a plan for your book, who your reader is, who, what you want to accomplish. Like we're going to lay it all out like a map.

[00:33:12] So I could say that's what we're doing in the program. And these are the things we're, you know, and then we've got the little step-by-step. And then we have the next phase. Well, we're going to have an editor and a coach walk by, you know, side-by-side, meet with you every week. We're going to come up with a writing plan. And we're going to do a developmental edit. You know, I mean, I can say what it is I'm offering in the program. So when I say features and benefit, that's what I mean. The feature of the program is that. The benefit of that feature is this. Right. That's what I'm asking.

[00:33:41] But you're not promising that they're going to write a best-selling book. Sure. I mean, I approach my own web presence kind of similarly. And I think that, you know, so anybody who follows me knows that it would be nonsensical to say that for anybody to come on the internet and say, hey, do what I tell you to do on this Facebook page and you will recover from complex trauma. You know, this thing that's ruined your life. My Facebook page is going to fix it.

[00:34:10] Well, we laugh, but that's literally what happens with this stuff. I got in trouble from you one time for saying I was getting therapy via your Instagram. And you're like, that's not therapy. That's right. It's really not. So the way I approach it, and I say this all the time, is like, I view my job, at least on the internet, as thrown out there things I think are worth thinking about in the course of constructing your trauma recovery blueprint.

[00:34:37] And I emphasize knowledge, skills, and attitudes, right, or skills, tools, and philosophies. And again, I'm like, well, I can throw those out there and we can talk about them and I can tell you how they've worked. Like, I ground everything in my own trauma and addiction recovery. But if you do a search on my web presence, search for the phrase, your mileage may vary.

[00:35:04] Because I'm saying that all the time as a reminder that, you know, man, and I get yelled at it. Like, I get yelled at by, you know, there's a subset of folks who are like, okay, this is all well and good, but can you get real specific about how I can recover from trauma? I'm like, of course I can. I don't know you. Of course, that would make no sense.

[00:35:24] But if we keep the conversation, either whether we're talking about a web presence or if we're talking about a seminar series, if we keep the conversation on the level of, you know, let's, these are interesting ideas and these are interesting tools. But we're not selling an outcome here. Like, I'm reminded of, so I constantly get ads for trainings.

[00:35:51] Like, like, like, like get this training and you'll be certified to do this. Right? Mm-hmm. So that, that, that promise of a certification, if you complete the academic, or if you complete the course, that's kind of a promise of an outcome. The implied promise of it is like, well, once you're certified, then people are gonna, you'll get more business. Right? And you'll be more skilled to do this thing. And, you know, yada, yada, yada.

[00:36:15] Um, and it's, it's, it's a subtle thing of like, well, we're not really promising anything but the certificate, but they kind of imply that, well, you know. Oh, and it's a certificate, because I've, as somebody who used to print these certificates. Yeah. Yes. They are certificates of completion. They're not even certificates of like the thing. Like you're certified as a, you know, qualified neuroscience coach now. I just did.

[00:36:42] I just finished a year long program from Be Above Coaching. It was fabulous. And I kept laughing because as soon as I was doing that, the internet must have figured out I was into neuroscience. Because I keep getting these ads for, in a week, in a weekend, become a top-notch neuroscience-based coach that will earn $12,000 a month. You know, like all this stuff. And I kept sending it to my dear friend, Ann Betts, who facilitates that course.

[00:37:11] I'm like, look at this. And she's, and she, by the way, is a huge, she was one of the very first ones when I started talking. She came and took your promise. She wraps it into her courses now. We just did a wrap-up. And she had Seek Safely Practitioner Promise right on the screen for all of the students. I highly recommend you go, you know, read this promise. And you take this promise. And you, you know, take the class with Ann on safe practitionering. And, you know, like she was such an advocate for it.

[00:37:38] But in part because in her own industry, her industry keeps getting degraded by all these false promisers. So that's another thing is like practitioners think, oh, and that's what they say to me whenever I say stop making promises. They're like, but how am I going to get customers? I'm like, you're not going to get customers. You're going to get pissed off people. That's what you're going to get in the long run. I mean, you might get a short-term customer. But in the long run, you're actually undermining your industry.

[00:38:05] You're undermining what you're, you know, if you do have good intentions, you're actually undermining those intentions. You know, and then, yeah, certification. That's in our, Ed Gerwitz and I do a little coach training thing. And we literally, one of the features is you will not get a certificate. Ed wanted to do certificates. I was like, he got a whole talking to for me. I'm like, we don't do certificates at Illuminate. So one thing we can say is that that responsible self-help doesn't promise outcomes.

[00:38:36] What are our other thoughts, Jean? Well, I think another theme that comes up in all of this is about maintaining agency. And that goes for both the seeker and the practitioner that, you know, as a seeker, you're always the one in control. And it's hard to remember that because so often you're in a program that's trying to whittle away your control.

[00:39:03] When, if you've come into contact with a less responsible guru or organization. So that's very difficult. But I, so I will, I will repeat that over and over and over. Yeah. Oh, Landmark is a genius at giving you fake agency. I mean, they're, you know, it's really good. Because first, the very first part of the weekend, they spend two hours going through everything about the court.

[00:39:33] And look, this comes out of their good intentions. So, you know, I do think that they actually think this works. But there's a big piece they're missing. That you go over and over and over everything you're going to do and how challenging the weekend's going to be. And how you're going to want to leave. And how you're going to be hungry and uncomfortable. And all of it. They tell you all this stuff. And, I mean, the good leaders do. Most of them do some version of this. And they do a fairly decent job. And then you go into the first bank and they say, so this is your opportunity to choose. This is your opportunity to choose.

[00:40:03] And you can leave. You just go to the back. You give your name tag to the supervisor in the back. And I think you get your money back. I can't remember if you get all of it. Whatever. But the point is, it's called opportunity to choose. And that's your opportunity to choose. But if you come back from the break, then you're in. And you're in for the whole ride. You can't get off this ride in the middle. Right? This all sounds really good, right? Sounds like agency. And it is to a certain extent, for sure.

[00:40:32] What they aren't aware of is social pressure. Some cost fallacy. They're not accounting for that as they design that. They're not. And then on top of that, they don't. Are you sure? Like, it sounds like they are accounting for it. Oh, counting on it as a maniple. As the quiet power in the underground, you mean? Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. No, better said. Right? Yeah. So, yeah. They're counting on, you know, it's embarrassing to leave.

[00:41:02] It's, you know. And John Atak was just telling me his foundation, Opening Minds. I don't say his name right. Caldini, author of Influence. That's a fantastic book. And he's not too happy from what I hear about how it gets used now, which is, you know, how people are influenced, right? And this is one of them, social pressure. Yeah, it's like a marketing handbook now. Well, all the marketers took it and went, woohoo! This is how I psychologically manipulate people to do what I want them to do. And it's all over these programs.

[00:41:31] It's all over our marketing. In fact, I got an ad the other day that, in a weekend, would certify me and it literally said, use psychology to get people to buy your products. Now, we've always been doing that. I'm re-watching Mad Men right now. It's been around for a while. But that's where, as consumers, we need to understand our own psychology better, which was his real point in that book.

[00:42:01] Like, that's why he went into that whole study is because he bought all these chocolate bars from some kid and he didn't even like chocolate. He's like, what? This happened? You know? How did this happen? Yeah. No, his whole list is excellent. Yeah, so that's another, I guess, you know, we can call that kind of part of agency is just educating yourself about how these things work, how influence works.

[00:42:25] And then, yeah, so that you can go in as a more informed consumer and practitioner so that you don't replicate some of these, you know, techniques of manipulation. Um, but then I think it's also important for everyone to give themselves a bit of grace because we're also acknowledging that even when you know these things, it's still really easy to get duped by someone who's really skilled at this stuff.

[00:42:54] Um, so we shouldn't feel so bad when that happens. We all fall victim to the same. That's where Chris is. And by the way, all these people I'm mentioning are going to be our speakers, our panelists and speakers at the Seek Safely Summit, but Chris's new REM model, you know, rationalization, emotional needs, and moral. What's so, what I really learned when he was all excited and sent me this paper that he wrote for the group on it.

[00:43:21] And the big thing was what, how we're wired, we rationalize. But here's the thing I didn't know. We rationalize after, after we've made it. You know, sometimes we do it before, but mostly we'll do it after something has happened. Well, and I saw that a lot with, you know, the first time I saw, you know, Werner or one of his team, like, you know, screaming and berating somebody. I'm like, well, they agreed to it. It's their training.

[00:43:48] Now I had been given that rationalization before I saw it. So when I saw it, it was right there for me to pick up. But understanding that part of my, the way my brain works, how it handles being safe is it rationalizes. So, and if I can just put a pause in for a minute between whatever's happening and rationalizing

[00:44:11] about it, if I can just pause, just pause, like right there until I can just kind of, and then I'm like, does this feel good? Is this something funny going on here? It's the pause that really helps us. And then understanding that aspect of ourselves, like, oh, I'm about to rationalize this. My husband and I had this whole thing recently. We were dealing with a business partner and a really, a situation gone really bad, awry on a building project.

[00:44:40] And we realized in five weeks of trying to resolve something and get some answers that we were the only ones providing the rationalizations. We were providing rationalizations for them, for having, you know, mistakes made and da, da, da, da, da, because we love these people. We don't want to be upset with them. So we're like rationalizing, well, maybe they didn't know this. Maybe we didn't tell them enough. And maybe the, but what was funny is we realized we were doing all that.

[00:45:12] The, the contractor that, you know, went way over budget, we didn't have any of that. He wasn't doing anything. He was just like, it's not my fault. It's not my fault. You know, like, so that, that thing, that, but that's another piece, that model. Like, so understanding how we, how we get influenced and then understanding how we deal with having been influenced. Well, well, and, and that, and, and we can say something adjacent to that is like maybe

[00:45:39] good self-help, um, doesn't continually sell itself to you. Like something that having read as many self-help books as I have, like Christine Rieman and I talk about this kind of thing a lot, but there's a quirk in a lot of self-help literature of, so, okay, so you, you, you read the promises on the book jacket and you're into it.

[00:46:04] So you buy the book and then throughout the book, it will continue to sell itself to you. And so forth. You're right. A self-help book could be at least half as long. Right. And, and, and you hit a point where you're like, man, I, I bought the book, dude. I, I'm in. Like, I believe you. But, but can we just kind of talk about the meat of what you have to say as opposed to the, um, and that begs the question. Oh, I did it.

[00:46:33] That begs the question. It raises the question. It raises the question of why, why if, if a self-help book truly is useful or self-help product, seminar, whatever, like if it's truly that useful, then why do you need the hard self even after you're in, like, like even after, and because the answer to that is frequently, like we know

[00:46:59] what the answer to that is, is frequently because they're using this product to sell you another product and usually a more expensive product. Like that's why they can. The book is not the only thing. The book is the gateway. You bet. So, so good self-help, maybe we can say in addition to not promising outcomes, in addition to, to using influence tactics transparently and thoughtfully, um, maybe we can say that at a certain point, good self-help, uh, stops selling and just gets down to it. Maybe we can say that. Okay.

[00:47:28] That just became a part of my author programs. That's really good. Yeah. Um, no, it really is. Like, it's really, well, I'm reading, but people send me their books to read. I'm reading one right now that's, it's, it's decent. Like it's this really great book about creativity and bringing creativity into business and then and then it trails off into this like transformative rhetoric. And it always like every, as I'm reading it now, cause I have now at, you know, developmental

[00:47:55] editor eyes, like, you know, cause we've been doing this book work for a while, but it's like, and I noticed like the whole point he's trying to make actually loses power when that happens. Like, it's like, he's saying something really good. And then there's this rhetoric. And I noticed for myself, even reading it, I'm, I get a little emotional hit like, Oh, Oh. But then I realized it didn't really say anything. Like it didn't give me that sentence, that paragraph didn't give me something that I can put into action or that I can actually apply.

[00:48:25] It just kind of made me feel good, which that's a big thing. That's the whole thing in marketing is see what the marketers know that a lot of people try to pretend is not true is what human behavior is directly and always tied to your emotions. So it's all about evoking emotions, large group awarenesses, awareness trainings. That is their hallmark as they create this super high emotional state and then have you attach a bunch of meaning to it and then go, we did that. Don't you want more?

[00:48:56] So, um, that's really great what you're saying. And now I'm going to be reading for that and I'll, and the, all the books I read now I'm going to have to go back and read my own, make sure I didn't do it. So avoid the, like the sugar, you know, a lot of self-help is just like sugar coated stuff that gives you that hit. And then, but there's like not a lot of substance in it, but something about it, the delivery of it is like, it gives you that feeling of like, oh my God, this is like euphoria. Like a kind of euphoric. Yeah.

[00:49:25] And it's a full line. I, you know, like I've always said, like when we've talked about this in the past, I've said, you know, that the purpose of self-help material, literature, whatever. It's kind of twofold, right? Like on the one hand, it gives you tools. Yeah. Um, on the other hand, it gives you hope. And I think a certain amount of that is, is leaning into that hope thing. Right. Um, but there's a point at which, uh, I mean, the metaphor of sugar, I think really works

[00:49:54] because we need sugar to live. We need sugar for ourselves to function. Right. But at a certain point it gets to be excessive and it gets to be harmful. Like I was recently, God, I had this experience recently. I was going back through my Kindle and, um, found an old self-help book that I, that I downloaded years ago and I never really got it out to reading. I'm like, all right, so let's start in on this. I won't mention the title of it because I, I don't know this guy or anything, but, but

[00:50:23] he was an NLP guy. And if you know anything about NLP, NLP is all about how we can use language patterns to set the stage and kind of influence people oftentimes without being all that transparent about it, et cetera, et cetera. And every damn time I read something about one of these NLP guys, you can, you can watch him trying to do it to you. Like, like, like, like using the suggestive language of like, as you read this book, you might find yourself thinking this.

[00:50:52] And I think you're really going to be excited about this. And that's called assumptive closing. Yes. And I'm like, I see you doing that and it's gross and I don't want to read anymore. It's priming you. It's priming you to have a specific reaction. Because, you know, not only do I feel manipulated, but that also makes me think you don't really have that much to tell me, right? Right. Like if you're doing, you're trying to convince me that it's going to be good. Yeah.

[00:51:19] Well, and part of the antidote again, for the consumer is understanding we are emotional creatures. And honestly, we like emotional highs and lows. We like euphoria. We even sometimes like the, the drama trauma side, you know, in the sense that it, you know, we'll dive into that and, and then we can kind of, you know, get ourselves. I spent a lot of time around world transformers, right? And they get into all the dark stuff because then we're going to save the world.

[00:51:48] But, you know, we, and it's one of the things in the spiritual training and work that I do now, which is what I've done since I left Landmark, possibly. In my personal development, the biggest thing I've been learning is how to be bored. Like how to just be bored and be okay with the highs and lows, but not act from them. Like, oh, you know, I've been, you know, do you guys know, you hear me complain about it all the time. My house, you know, I've been trying to sell my house for almost 10 months now.

[00:52:15] And, you know, so I can move back in with my husband across the country trying to build our new house. Right. And I'm like anxiety and fear and all of that. And, and, you know, I noticed myself now, like I want to move away from it, but I've actually learned how to just sit with it a little bit. And lo and behold, it dies down. It goes away. Sometimes there's even a message in it. There's a new idea or whatever.

[00:52:38] But I've only learned that from just learning how to sit with emotion, how to be less eager to drive emotion. So as a transformational teacher, like I love the highs of the Sunday afternoons. I still love them actually looking back of, you know, feeling inspired and lit up. And so there's not anything wrong with that, but understanding what it is really and the kind of effect it can have on me.

[00:53:03] And then like even having that, but not acting on it is that's the thing. Again, the pause, the gap is really important. Like really, really, really important. So something else that occurs to me about good self-help is that good self-help. Can we maybe say acknowledges and, and, and really gets into the limitations of the tool. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:53:31] So, so my favorite self-help book in, in, in the world is, as we all know, is Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins. And it's this 500 page monstrosity, but it's, it's, it's almost comical how much it promises. Like, like, like on the cover of the book, it says, take immediate control of your emotional, intellectual, financial, and physical destiny. Like, like it, it, it, all the things and, and understand, I, I, I mean,

[00:54:00] giving old my man, Tony, that the benefit of the doubt. I think he was trying, I think he was trying to do his magnum opus. Like, I think he was trying to cram it all into the, right. And, um, but here's the thing that the tools that he talks about in that book, and you know, it's a mixed bag, it's like a self-help book. Like it's, it's a mixed bag, but you wouldn't know that from the cover of the book, from the cover of the book and say, okay, not only like, like I've got something for everybody in here.

[00:54:28] And I think that, that the, the, the best self-help teachers and tools that I've ever been exposed to are really straightforward about like, okay, here's the limitation of this philosophy or here's the limitation of this tool. Like I, like I'm thinking here, you guys are probably familiar with one of the most famous personal development books of all time, Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. Right. And it's this meditation upon what makes life worth, worth living.

[00:54:55] And, and, and, and, and, and Frankl comes to the conclusion that it's meaning, that it's all about meaning. And that's a great tool. If you're in an existential crisis, that's an, a great tool. If you're in a very deep depression, I don't know if that's the best tool. If the challenge in front of you is the executive functioning problems of ADHD, right? Like I can invest those challenges with all the meaning in the world, but I still got to make it to places on time. And as you guys know, I'm never late.

[00:55:26] Wait, no, but, but the point is that, uh, so if I were marketing that as a tool and I wanted it to, I wanted to do it well and to be ethical and to be good self-help, I would say, Hey, I've got this great tool for the big questions. It might not be your tool for time management, but it's definitely your, you know, it could be part of your toolbox for like the, why should I continue to live kind of thing?

[00:55:51] So good self-help, I think, you know, really it not, it is, it is not only transparent about the limitations, but goes into it, like, like discusses it, like gets into it. Yeah. That, that would, I think, make it more efficacious as well. Like if, if you can outline how and when to use something, then it's going, then you're going to go, Oh, okay. So when I need this thing, I'm going to use this and it's probably going to work better than if you're trying to apply it to a situation that it's really not going to do anything

[00:56:21] for you. And then you'll just go, Oh, well, this didn't really work at all. And it really is on the practitioner to do that because I have a lot of people that, you know, will say to me like, well, I didn't say it applied to that. And I'm like, yeah, but you didn't say that's the point. You didn't say that you didn't. So you leave in the room that this tool can be used, especially if it's a tool like context, like one of my, anyway, there'll be another cliche that I go after, which is context is

[00:56:48] decisive, but context, you know, the way they talk about it in the human potential movement is context is all your view of life. But context in reality is actually the combination of how you're viewing something, how you're seeing something, how you're experiencing something and the something, the rain, you know, it's raining, right? So it's, and then, and I've had this conversation with so many of them and I, I'm like, I said, you're talking about creating a context and creating a context, but it doesn't change the circumstances. And they'll go, but I didn't say it changed the circumstances.

[00:57:18] I'm like, that's the point. You have to say, this is not going to change the circumstances. And you do need to deal with, you know, you participant person, coachee, whatever, you do have to address the circumstances as they are in the world, the way that it is. No creating a new view of those circumstances. This is the biggest gaslighting tool. Anyway, get me on my rant about context, but how it gets used in these fields, which is if I just shift how I'm viewing it, then all of a sudden I'm not a victim.

[00:57:47] Then all of a sudden that person's not a predator, you know, they're just a human being. They're just a human being. How much predatory behavior has gone by because we, you know, shift how we see it? Like, no. And I, I think, oh my gosh. There's a cat on a very high shelf right now. Very, very high shelf. You guys have probably heard it. He's been a, he's been a terrorist. He's been very busy. Yes, he is.

[00:58:14] Mine gave up on me, but that, you know, so it really is on the practitioner and like, this is another famous thing that will happen in landmark a lot. They'll say, okay, these tools that we introduced you to these weekend, these are only for your use. It's only for your personal use. It's only for how you deal with yourself and your life. Don't go use these tools on other people, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Talk to anybody who's got a landmark in their life and they will complain about how the landmark and tries to use the tools on them. Like that warning does not work anywhere on anybody.

[00:58:42] And then, but they don't say, and by the way, the tool doesn't work for X, Y, Z. They leave it hanging there. Like this thing that you just got, that you had this insight that feels really good can now apply everywhere. I mean, that's the whole point, right? So we, we, we could basically call that the EMDR problem. And there's a, there's a, uh, a technique and, and the world of, of trauma work EMDR,

[00:59:12] I move in desensitization reprocessing. And, um, and I'm, I'm trained in it. And you have a certificate. Uh, I don't have a certificate. I'm, I'm trained. The only, the only organization that actually issues EMDR certificates is the one that's founded by like, like the founder of the technique, like the discover, the developer of the technique, but you can get trained in EMDR in lots of places.

[00:59:37] Um, anyway, um, what has always killed me. So there, there's some people who get trained in EMDR and, and, and it's not certainly not the only tool like this brain spotting is similar. Dialectual behavior therapy in some ways are similar, but I got an email today that said they would train me in DBT in a week. You got it. So, so anyways, but, but, but EMDR is by far the worst offender because people learn this technique that is really, it's a really interesting technique.

[01:00:06] It, it, it incorporates a lot of interesting neuroscience and, and, um, it's adjacent to things like hypnosis, which has a long history in the trauma treatment world and whatnot. But anyway, people kind of become evangelists about it because it's really cool. Like, and it is cool. Like when it works, it's cool. The problem is I used to work on a, well, my, my first job as a psychologist actually was as the unit psychologist on an inpatient trauma unit.

[01:00:36] So, so we would get folks who were heavily traumatized, who for whatever reason, they'd become unsafe outside of the hospital. They needed the safety of the hospital to do some work. They were in danger to themselves, others. And I would say a good half or more of our folks were there because they've, yeah, they've been working, they've been doing EMDR work and they'd gotten flooded. They got overwhelmed. Somebody had tried to use the tool in a way that was inappropriate, either inappropriate

[01:01:03] for that person or inappropriate for that problem or without a broader understanding of the trauma history or symptomatology, like what have you. But like, it's, it's not just a, like this tool won't work for this, but this tool can be really destructive, you know, to the tune of, of triggering memories and stuff that you didn't know you had, but guess what? You got them now. And, and, and, and, and, you know, so anyway, so, so we see this kind of across the board,

[01:01:32] not just in South Park, we definitely see it. And, and, you know, like, you know, Gene, you, you and I have said it dozens and dozens of times that if a tool or a technique or a philosophy, whatever, if it is powerful enough to make a positive impact on your life, it's also powerful enough to ruin your life. Yeah. Oh, that's good. Somebody write that down. Take this down real seriously. No, that's, you just nailed the whole thing right there. And, and that's the piece that if practitioners and consumers really understood that, like

[01:02:02] really, really went into everything with that, they could, I would just think we would be in a whole different world. And Gene, you said something in when, you know, you and I did a presentation for the shout out to the Be More Ethical Society of Baltimore. I think it was, right? Um, but you said something in that presentation that really stuck with me, which is if we get to the legislative action, like that we need legislative action, that we need laws that

[01:02:28] we need, when it gets to the legal stage, something's gone wrong. And we need that. Like, yes, it's got a deterrent effect. You know, we're not, that's why, you know, a part of it seeks, um, mission is advocacy for, you know, legislation and, and so forth. But I, I was really struck by that when you said that, like, no, no, that's the point at which it's, it's gone wrong. Right. And you know that so firsthand, um, I have a whole group reading your book, The Sweet

[01:02:58] Life right now, and they are being really impacted by it. It's, it's really, um, anyway, it's, it's, it's actually really making a difference with a bunch of practitioners who are very good intended people and can't imagine that anything they would ever do would go wrong. And they're reading that book and they're like, they see themselves in it, either in Kirby's story or in James Arthur Ray's story, you know, like, um, and, uh, but that's, that's, yeah, if we really knew that piece, that would be amazing. Well, that's it.

[01:03:27] I think kind of, you know, bringing it, bringing it back around to the top. I think that's the temper for the good intentions, right? Understanding that what you're doing has both the power to transform and be amazing and be wonderful. And it also has the power to really harm. I think, I hope that's what, you know, gives people, um, a little pause. Like you said, I think you're right. The pause is really important.

[01:03:55] Just a little pause, whether you're, you know, offering something or you're hoping to gain something. So this has been a great conversation. We could keep going. Um, I, I, I'm, I'm always the one I'm trying to wrap us up, but before we stop, um, can we, and you mentioned the, um, the Seek Safely Summit. So can we talk about that very, very quickly? We'll give a little quick one.

[01:04:22] Just a quick, we'll put a link in the, in the show notes and whatnot, but the, on the socials, all of our socials will, you know, different stuff. But fundamentally we're doing online one day Zoom summit and we really are guys come participate just so, uh, we can actually go do it live someday. So, you know, I know that's your mom's dream is to be able to, you know, once or twice a year bring together all these different, um, people, you know, consumers, practitioners,

[01:04:51] teachers, trainers, legislators, like get us all together in a room. Like to me, that's fundamentally the kind of vision that the summit is organized around. And we're trying to get these going to be a regular occasion, but we have one coming up on May 30th. It'll be our second one ever. And, um, you know, we've got a great group of panelists and speakers, and we're going to be talking about all the, I mean, we've touched on a good portion of the, of the issues today. We're going to be talking about the role of education, the role of legislation.

[01:05:20] Um, and we're doing it in kind of a panel format and the guests, the ticket holders who are there participating with us live will be invited to ask questions and be engaged in the conversation. So it's not just, you know, experts talking at you, but you know, we want to hear from our, um, folks too. And, you know, the tickets, we have a three tier ticketing price, which I'm excited about this year. Cause we really want to make it accessible. We have a student kind of price. So we have a price that basically covers the cost of putting it on.

[01:05:48] And then we have a price that contributes some, um, it back into seek safely as well. So it can continue their work. So it is a fundraising event and, um, but it's a fundraising event, completely seek safely style, where we are going to offer lots of good conversation, ideas, solutions, red flags, green flags. Chris is going to be talking about his REM model. We mentioned earlier, John A. Tak is going to be talking about how to avoid, um, what he's learned.

[01:06:16] He's got some really amazing educational programs that he's developing for, um, primary school in England, actually, um, to teach people how to spot propaganda, little relevant things, you know, how to spot propaganda, how to notice when you're being influenced. Glenn and Rachel, Rachel Bernstein, right? A friend, big friend of seek safely. Um, you guys are going to be talking about healing and deconstructing and why it matters and how to know if you need that anyway. And so all kinds of really useful things.

[01:06:46] That's our point. Exactly. And I think I like, you know, the theme that we have is, is building solutions, right? So it's more, more of this, like more of this discussion where we want to recognize that there is a lot of good to be had in this industry. And there are people with great intentions and that's a good thing. Like that's a great starting point. Um, but how to navigate so that, you know, as the seeker, you don't lose yourself and fall into something dangerous.

[01:07:12] And as a practitioner, you don't lose yourself as well and end up doing things you're not intending to do. Um, yeah, we're, we're really, it's really focused on that more positive side rather than just, just, you know, it's again, so easy to focus on all the bad stuff, but that's not really going to change anything in the long run. I think we have to build something, um, something better. So that's, that's what that's all about. So yeah. Thank you for talking about that.

[01:07:40] Thank you for being with us for this episode. Anytime. My pleasure. I, I love it. Love it. Love it. Love it. Thank you. One of the reasons that I thought of this, this topic tonight, I went back and read some old reviews and one of the reviews specifically said, I really like this, you know, more constructive perspective on the industry. And I was like, yes, that's right. Let's, let's take it back there for a minute.

[01:08:08] So your reviews really mean a lot to us. 100%. And, um, your comments. Yeah. They help, they help kind of shape the direction of things. So definitely. Sorry, Glenn. Like you said, leave a review. If you liked our show, leave a review. If you didn't like our show, forget I said anything. But please follow us on the socials at seek safely. You can find me on the socials at Dr. Doyle says, and where can we find you? Actually, seek safely.org as, uh, the platform partner that helps provide the programs that any

[01:08:37] programs you link from there, you're going to end up over at illuminate life and, uh, and I'll give you the illuminate life leak, but that's actually the best place. And or my show confronting the line. Confronting the line. Confronting the line. And then I just started a new Patreon beyond the line, which is after we can, well, because what I realized after two years of confronting the line, like, okay, it's a kind of headed this direction. All right. We've learned so much now. What can we really do with what we're learning? So that's what beyond the lines about, but Jean, Jean, are, are, are we ever going to see

[01:09:06] a return of the self-styled life? Oh yeah. Maybe. I don't know. Jean, Jean, Jean used to. I have this amazing blog. Oh yeah. I had a cool blog. You could still read it. I mean, it's all there. I've gotten rid of it. I kind of deleted all my social media apps recently. I'll get back to it eventually. Is that why you don't like things when I tag you on them? Is that why? Yes. That's definitely why. It's not that I don't like them. It's that I'm actually just not there. Just not there. All right, gang. Thank you for tuning in.

[01:09:35] Thank you for tuning into the Seek Safety Pod. See you next time. All right. Thank you. Wow. Thanks for listening to this episode. We hope that you have found it enlightening, and we'd be so, so grateful if you'd share it with the seekers in your life. We all know at least one, right? Until our next episode, you can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Seek Safely.

[01:09:59] Connect with Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle at Dr. Doyle Says, and me, Jean, at Jean C. Brown on Twitter. Feel free to send us an email, info at seeksafely.org. To support Seek Safely, you can make a secure donation on our website, seeksafely.org slash donate. The Seek Safely Podcast is produced by Citizens of Sound.