Recapping the SEEK Safely Summit with Anne Peterson

[00:00:00] At Seek Safely, it's our mission to empower seekers to have a safe and meaningful self-improvement journey. Why do we care? Seeking to be your best self is an amazing, beautiful human impulse that has led us to create art, invent technology, tell amazing stories, and reach the moon.

[00:00:19] But we saw the dark side of self-help in 2009, when a recklessly run self-improvement retreat led to the death of three people, including my sister, Kirby Brown. We want people to seek, to dream their big dreams and chase their beautiful goals. But we want to make sure they're safe along the way. This podcast is about education and empowerment, and getting real about the promises and problems of self-help.

[00:00:46] We talk with people who understand and care about the self-help industry, and everyone it touches. I'm Jean Brown. I'm Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle. And this is the Seek Safely Podcast. Hello, everybody! Welcome to the Seek Safely Podcast. I am Jean Brown. I'm here with my co-host, Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle.

[00:01:12] And we have a guest today, Ms. Anne Peterson. Hi, guys! Oh, boy. J-Beans. Number one fan. Number one fan. I am under the weather today. Yes. I've got a respiratory thing going, so you like... We have a slightly diminished Dr. Glenn, but that's okay. Oh, or enhanced, depending on how you contextualize it. Because listeners, you're going to get like the kind of a, you know, the rough, gravelly... It's your radio, radio voice.

[00:01:40] That's right. The rough, gravelly Dr. Doyle. And I'm just saying that might be a feature, not a glitch for certain of our audience. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Yeah. You know, Jean, speaking of voices, I was...

[00:01:56] Yeah, so I was on YouTube, and I just kind of let it play. Like, when I'm writing something, I just kind of let it play in the background, and the algorithm just chooses whatever. And then suddenly, I hear a very familiar voice, and it's my best friend, Jean Brown, talking. And it was from... You two had served me up a video from like four years ago, a True Crime Arizona special thing. Oh, yeah. Okay.

[00:02:21] And it's you, and it's Ginny, and stuff. But it was just so weird that I was just here writing, and then suddenly, Jean's voice is speaking to me, and I'm like, do Jean and I talk that much that I'm now hearing her voice in my head? Which would not be the worst thing, mind you.

[00:02:38] I know. You know, I'll just sneak up on you once in a while. I actually did... I don't even think I told anybody about this. I kind of forgot about it for a while. I did a whole interview for this show that was kind of recording locally in the city where I live in, Ontario. And then one of my coworkers recently was like, hey, I saw you on this TV show. And I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot about that. So you never know.

[00:03:06] And then I also did an interview recently about ticks in the woods near my house. So I was in the local newspaper. So, you know, I'll just pop up from time to time. You're a phenomenon. You're a sensation. I know. You're popping up everywhere. She's everywhere. But the ticks in the woods, that was not a metaphor for self-help gurus. Like that was... No, no. I was actually literally concerned. I mean, I could probably find a way to link it to self-help somehow if you give me a couple minutes. But no, it was just literally about the ticks.

[00:03:36] Did these ticks have a sales funnel? There are a lot of them. Oh, I have a link for you. Yeah? Yes, Glenn, they do. I just moved to the woods with two rescue dogs and I was completely freaked out about ticks. And so my Facebook is now feeding me constant funnels for all kinds of miraculous, natural, healthy cures. Because it knows that I like natural, healthy stuff apparently. Yeah. Anyway, to keep my dogs safe from ticks.

[00:04:03] And just so you know, I went and got the drugs and they have tick medication. But sprays, collars, tags that hang and emit noise. Oh, it's like crazy. All the things. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, so the ticks do have a sales funnel apparently. Oh my gosh. All right. Well, onward. What are we doing here tonight? J-Beans? All right.

[00:04:31] Well, we have Anne with us because we recently held the Seek Safely Summit. And we had an amazing day with some amazing speakers and we just wanted to do a little recap about that. Anne was recently going through all of the recordings and was just like, oh my God, you guys, there's so much stuff in there.

[00:05:21] So good. We'll be able to do that. But yeah, for this episode, we just wanted to talk a little bit about the summit and hit some of the high points. And yeah. I was thinking, Jean, you know, the thing about LGATs, right? Which, you know, what I worked for was a big LGAT company and, you know, a lot of the gurus. So large group awareness trainings. And the main feature of those is this peak experience. This like, you know, you leave in this like high, right?

[00:05:50] Dr. John Hunter talks about the dopamine hypothesis and the dopamine high. And then they label that transformation and then sell it to you. So they basically give you these big peak experiences, sell it to you, right? So I was going through all the recordings, but the summit was a little, it wasn't an LGAT. But there was so much great information. Like at the end of the day, people were just like, whoa. Like, I don't know.

[00:06:12] One person told me they went and took a nap for like two hours because there was just so much information and so much just really cool points and whatnot. So I was thinking as I was going through the recordings, I'm like, okay, this is a much better way to do this because it doesn't come at you all at once. Like, yeah. I mean, even I was like, wait, what did Glenn say again? Wait, let me, oh my gosh, that's so, you know, it's, it was great. So I was just thinking, yeah, LGATs are missing out.

[00:06:39] They should like sell the recordings of their peak experience so that you could then like actually mine them for the information that's useful. A little bit, a little, yeah. Or then they'd have to produce some useful information, but you know. And events like the Seek Safely Summit are highly relevant to kind of how we think of ourselves as an organization too.

[00:06:58] Like, like one of our concerns when, when Seek Safely was established was that it was going to turn into an anti-James Arthur Ray thing. And then once he was straightened out, like, like our momentum was going to diminish. And of course he was the focal point early on because that's the, you know, it was the, you know, the, the, the momentum early on is what happened in Sedona.

[00:07:26] But something that, that we've worked really hard to do is to have ongoing conversations about the evolving state of this industry, right? Because it's always been our contention that it's not even just the industry. It's the things that the industry rewards and kind of the structure of how, how certain products and services and personalities interact. And we see that now transferred over to this digital age. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:55] So Seek Safely is really about having these conversations, not just about, you know, the, the specifics of how the self-help or wellness industry look at any one point. But kind of the overall, overall picture and the overall direction and the overall pressures and incentives. And, and, and, and so that's why we have these, these ongoing conferences and these ongoing events. So we can talk about it in an, in an ongoing updated way. Mm-hmm. So that's what I love about these things. We're doing them.

[00:08:25] And that's what I love about doing them year after year. We can see how they evolve. Yeah. Yeah. And we're in a time when things are evolving very quickly. So it's worth revisiting, you know, these ideas and these conversations over time because the, the, the landscape is constantly changing. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in the focus of the summit, this, this is why I'm number one fan, self-proclaimed of Seek Safely. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:53] Because, you know, I too, when I wrote my book, Blowing the Whistle, about Landmark and Werner and all that, I, I didn't, I didn't want to become like another, as much as I love them, they're now all my friends, all the post-cult people, you know? And I, I love that because I still love, like, I love self-help. I love personal development. I love, you know, I spent almost my whole adult life in that industry.

[00:09:18] So what I appreciate so much about Seek Safely is, is that you're, you know, in your conversations and education and whatnot, like providing a way to sort of honor the good stuff, you know, the healthy stuff, the good stuff. And, and just parsing that out from the bad stuff, the unhealthy stuff. And so the theme of the summit this year, and who knows, this may be our theme for, you know, many years, because there's certainly more than enough content, but it was about around building solutions.

[00:09:48] We didn't want to just look at the problem. It's important to keep looking at the problem. I don't want to sound like I'm diminishing that at all. It's, and we're not near way, nearly through enough of that.

[00:10:00] There's still more people that are falling under undue influence, manipulation, culty, harmful groups, and following, you know, leaders that do not mean what they say, you know, and, you know, that's definitely still a problem. So we still need to talk about that. But then there's also a lot that want to do better.

[00:10:24] Like when I host the Safe Practitioner Workshop, I'm always just really moved by these practitioners from across all kinds of disciplines, plant medicine, coaching, consulting, like facilitators, workshops, woo-woo, you know, manifestation guru-y people. But they really want, they want to be healthy. They're doing that because they want to make a difference.

[00:10:52] And there's just no really, I mean, other than in the very traditional paths, you know, such as, you know, university degrees for psychology, social work, and whatnot. But there's just very, very, very, very little in terms of how do you do that healthy and safely. So that was part of our aim, which to me really reflects what Seek Safely is all about. Yeah, for sure.

[00:11:16] I was recently re-watching season two of The Vow, an HBO series about NXIVM. And season two of The Vow includes a lot of footage, interview footage of Nancy Salzman. Yeah. Who was the president of NXIVM.

[00:11:36] And, you know, she was, her shtick was that she knew nothing of the weird gross stuff, specifically the sex cult stuff, and that she was just running a self-improvement organization. And she hit over and over again this theme of, I was trying to do a good thing. And this was entirely consistent with even my life before NXIVM.

[00:12:04] I was trying to make the world a better place. And why did this weird gross stuff have to come along and ruin this good thing that I was doing? Like, now, whatever you think of that, like, whatever you think of Nancy Salzman, and I think she's a complex character in that whole saga. But I think there are practitioners who, like, their nightmare is winding up in that position of getting into the field to do something good.

[00:12:30] And then because of, like I was saying a moment ago, what the field entails or what it incentivizes, what it allows, what it rewards, I'm winding up in this position of hurting people. Yeah. So I agree with you, Anne. I think there is a contingent of folks who really want tools and their framework for doing this ethically and well. Yeah. I watched, when I watched that, it took me four sittings to watch that final episode. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:59] And then it took, with her, you know, kind of just waking up to just the very tip of the iceberg beginning of what she had been really a part of and a leader in. And it was hard for me to watch because I, I kid you not, texted our friend Sarah Edmonds and I'm like crying, oh my God, am I Nancy Salzman?

[00:13:31] Mm-hmm. To unwind that, which she's in the middle of her journey. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:56] You know, and how much she'll unwind or not, that's her, you know, that's in her hands. But, and there's a lot of phases to that. And then, but you do come to a point where it's like, okay, wait, but what about the good stuff? Mm-hmm. What about, I was in, Chris Shelton and I are hosting a little group right now on his book that he just put out about reclaiming your life after a cult. And we're doing a chapter by chapter kind of like Q&A, go through discussion group thing.

[00:14:24] And this week was about born-ins and all this stuff. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we were talking about how, you know, how your identity, your personality structure gets taken over by these associations and these groups, right? Right. Different levels, different degrees of that. And, but one of the things that came up that I brought up was like, yeah, but what about the things I liked about myself that got exploited that I now don't feel comfortable using?

[00:14:53] Like, I don't, I'm really uncomfortable acknowledging people because I'm terrified they're going to think I'm love bombing them. Yes. Mm-hmm. Do you know, like, there's, there's a lot, it's complex. This is a complex space wherever you enter into it. If you come into this space like, oh my God, I think I was a part of something that was really damaging and hurtful to myself or others. Or just like, wait, was I? Or, you know, wherever you are. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:22] Or maybe you were just in like a cult of one. That's become a thing now, right? Like where you're in a relationship that's a really high control or abusive relationship. Because all those dynamics are the same. It's just different, different scales and degrees. And different roles, you know, there's different roles inside of there. But yeah, that was, yeah. So I've always just appreciated that. And that's, you know, we built the summit around like, okay, let's not just talk about the problem. Let's talk about what we're doing about it.

[00:15:48] And, you know, which comes right to, we opened up with what Seek is doing. I love the way, so we opened up with an opening from Ginny. That's great. You guys, y'all have to watch the videos. There's two of them up now, one on YouTube. And they should be, if you accept the collaborative thing, Jean, they'll show up on the Seek things. Yeah, yeah, I will. But that, and then, you know, the update about what's going on with the legislation.

[00:16:14] You know, you guys, Seek Safely, a big part of your mission, a big part of what we're looking for funding for. By the way, folks, SeekSafely.org. Hit that donate button. Help us get the first ever. However, it's my job is to shill because that's just so important. But, you know, first ever consumer protection laws that are really aimed specifically at the space. Not a side angle, but like coming right at the self-help and wellness space. And we need that more than ever.

[00:16:42] And then later on, we had an expert on who, you know, works with people about how to get legislation. A former California state senator that, that was a mind-blowing. I've actually watched that twice. Yeah, I need to go back and re-watch that. Yeah, I need to go back through that. And then I need to, we need to have some meetings with that guy. Because I was like, oh, we need you on our team. Yeah, that was a great conversation. That was very interesting.

[00:17:11] Yeah, so we did this whole, like I gave a bit of an update on the legislation and talked a little bit about, you know, what's in the legislation, what it's trying to do. And then he is somebody who's really been involved in helping to advocate for different types of legislation. So he, you know, had a lot of great, really interesting things to say about how you advance that and how you get people on board and get buy-in from different stakeholders to try to push forward legislation.

[00:17:40] And that was, that was really, that was a great conversation. Yeah. Remind me his name. Senator Joe Dunn. So former senators, California state senator Joe Dunn. Joe Dunn. Joe Dunn. Yeah. So we had him among our guests. And then you did, you had a great conversation with Chris Shelton and John Atak. That was also like, I need to go back and listen to that one.

[00:18:10] Whew. Yeah. That was, that was just like full of, we got like a whole history lesson in that one. That was awesome. I think I could probably listen to that one like two or three times just to try to get everything out of that. Well, what I love about that, you know, that session was, you know, I invited them because both of them have pretty big initiatives going about education.

[00:18:33] John particularly getting this educational programming that he's designed to train fifth graders about how to recognize undue influence. Right. And every time he tells me about it, I'm like, can I have that program? Like, you know, I think we all need that. And, um, and he's in the UK. So it's in the UK school systems that they're working on that.

[00:18:54] And, um, you know, it's, and knowing the history and like the more you read about the history, what I love about that is, and I'm always like, oh, wait, this isn't something wrong with me. This isn't something wrong with the times we're living in. It's not because, you know, the dollar has become the almighty thing.

[00:19:16] Like the dollar has always been the almighty thing since there was coins, you know, like, and then to see how it all weaves in the, like one thing gets in trouble, like gets taken down Madam Blavatsky and they're, you know, crazy sex cults of what's that guy?

[00:19:32] Alistair Crawley and, you know, all this stuff, read John A. Tack's latest book for all this stuff if anybody's interested in this kind of deep dive, but that, and then you see that people like Warner Earhart and James Arthur Ray took those ideas, cleaned out, cleaned them up, dusted off the really weird stuff. And then sometimes, sometimes, and then turned it into, in Lambert's case, distinctions, that's what they call it.

[00:20:01] And, and started to infuse it everywhere in all kinds of places and, um, business consulting, personal coaching. Um, I mean, you just, it's all blended in there. And so anyway, yeah, that was kind of intense. And then John, um, Chris's, I, I love Chris's ability cause he studies stuff really deeply and then he can like give it back to you in two paragraphs that make sense to the every person.

[00:20:30] That's like my favorite thing about Chris is he's so good at taking like big concepts like boundaries and actually, you know, helping understand it. So, um, I really appreciate that about him. I mean, he's 10 years, 10 years. He's been taking this stuff apart, studying, went, got his master's degree in coercive control.

[00:20:54] But, and then that he's willing to share all that knowledge and that experience with us, like pretty much anywhere he can. You know, that's, that's part of your mom told me this a long time ago, Jean, that's part of healing. You know, when we, when we, the lessons that we kind of these hard, hard one lessons, as it were, when you do want to start giving them back, like you want to warn other people, you want to share what you've learned. You want to save somebody, even if you can save them one year of, of that lost year.

[00:21:23] Um, it, it, it helps in your own healing. Yes, exactly. And I think it's part of, like you were saying that, that kind of recognition of like, oh God, like I was, I was promoting something that was harmful in the end. I didn't realize it at the time because my intentions were so good.

[00:21:43] Um, and I think that's also for a lot of people that I've met anyway, you know, that's part of why, again, they're so eager to share their story because it's part of, you know, not, not like making amends exactly, but kind of. Like trying to go back and say, okay, I, I, maybe I caused harm in the past. Um, but I've learned all this stuff and I feel like it's important to share it. And yeah.

[00:22:07] So, you know, the summit, I think like we've realized, um, a lot of the people who are involved with it are, are people who were, you know, involved in some sort of group or some sort of movement or whatever you want to call it at some point. Um, it's the practitioners as much as the participants who are all often the same people anyway, who are, who are engaging with us, which is cool.

[00:22:32] Well, I find it so interesting and such a bummer that, that, that we're always talking about coercive control. Mm-hmm. Five or six years. Right. Um, the, the folks who have resonated most strongly with us.

[00:23:00] And I think Anne is, is, is, is folks who have either a real stake in or have been harmed by, um, coercive control and, and undue influence. Like it's like, it's like, you know, like I was thinking about this because recently my fiance, Megan was, was going back and, and listening to all of the season one episodes. And we had a lot of guests.

[00:23:25] And, and, and, and if you remember, like, like we were talking to folks and about multi-level marketing and, and, and we were talking about, again, it was, you know, for, for a podcast and organization focused on, on industry. You know, the self-help industry, you know, the self-help industry, gosh, you would be forgiven for thinking that we were one of these, you know, kind of cult recovery podcasts. Mm-hmm. Because there was so much intersection there. Yeah.

[00:23:50] And so it's interesting that, you know, man, here we are at this point in our, in our journey and, you know, we're, we're really putting together tools and philosophies and frameworks for how people can do this work ethically and well, and how people can consume this work. Mm-hmm. Without getting harmed. And we're still talking about coercive control and undue influence. Like it still comes back to any technology or tool of philosophy, whatever that can change your life for the better.

[00:24:19] Mm-hmm. Like if it really can do that, right. It also has the potential to ruin your life. Yeah. You need to take that seriously. So I was thinking about that as well. Like think, you know, it's the, the, the intersection between us and the Scientology guys is always so interesting to me. And one of my favorite episodes of this podcast we've ever done was that Chris Shelton episode. Right. Because episodes, we had a couple. But why is that? It's not just because Scientology was a cult.

[00:24:49] It's because how do folks get into Scientology? They're into self-help, right? Like Dianetics famously supposedly a self-help book. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's always, I mean, it's not coincidence that this is where we keep ending up. Yeah. Well, thank you. I see it as a kind of a continuum. Like, you know, you've got this self-help, but then it's so often veers off into that culty territory. And that's why I, that's why I keep going to the cult conference.

[00:25:18] And it's funny because, you know, my, my, my application into my PhD program, I did not mention cults, but I mean, it's gonna, it's gonna find its way in there because it's just kind of the inevitable outcome of so many of these groups and organizations. Well, and I'm curious, you know, Glenn, you work with complex trauma, which as we know from its name is complex.

[00:25:46] And, um, one of the things I've learned from you is that recovery is also kind of complex. It's not a one hit thing. It's not a few sessions of EMDR and, you know, a little somatic counseling and maybe some MDMA now, you know, it's a hot thing. And so, you know, and then all of a sudden you're cured, like that's, my daughter has complex trauma. And that's one of the things that I've learned.

[00:26:11] And, you know, originally I didn't, I didn't want to write a book about all the yucky things that happened. I didn't want to, I wanted to forget that. I wanted to move on. And I wanted to write a book about with, just with the lessons I had learned just with like specifically for practitioners, like how to not become a sociopathic narcissistic cult leader, like, because it eats them up too.

[00:26:36] I mean, you, if you, you know, we all know some of those people now they're not doing well, you know, it's not like they have. So, but I just wanted to talk about the solutions. I didn't want to talk about the problems. I get tired of talking about the problems, honestly, because it's kind of heartbreaking. And what I've come to understand is kind of like complex drama walking besides my daughter. There is no, I'm probably not ever going to be able to not talk about it.

[00:27:01] And, you know, I'm not because it's part of the whole thing. You know, it's part of the whole lexicon. And if we, you know, if I looked out in the world and if I could read a newspaper and not see some sort of crazy manipulative influence going on somewhere in some space, that would be great. But it actually feels like it's getting more prolific, not less.

[00:27:26] And it's big and complex and twisty and turny and all that. So, to talk about the solutions, we do have to talk about the problem. And I finally, I think, gotten, so it's been two years, a little over two years since my book was written. And I'm like, okay, I got it. My idea of mic drop and never have to talk about this again, it's not going to happen.

[00:27:53] Because to talk about the thing I want to talk about, I do have to reference to that. And there's so many people that are still falling into these traps. You know, and it's really, Chris teases me all the time. He said, you know, Landmark is cult light. And he's actually right. It is kind of cult light. Like, by comparison. Yeah. And is that deliberately?

[00:28:22] Because it took Scientology. They took a whole bunch of Scientology and mind dynamics and a bunch of weirdo stuff. And tried to make it normal. Tried to make it, you know, for the every person. Yeah, so you could put it into Lululemon corporate trainings. Exactly. And Panda Express. What's the other big one? The big sandwich shop. Anyway. And now I look back with everything I've learned.

[00:28:50] Because now I'm deep into the ideas themselves and kind of pulling those apart. Right. And I'm finding some pretty big gaps in logic. You think? You think? Pretty. It's like taking in. There's so much. Here's what I love. There's so much psychology in there. And yet all these groups poo-poo the heck out of psychology. They're all like, oh, you don't need that. While they're completely taking it, changing the words. Oh, yeah. You know?

[00:29:20] And using it. It's like crazy. Oh, certainly. Yeah. So it's an interesting thing. But it does just get tiring sometimes. Because it's heartbreaking. Well, so speaking of psychology and cults, I'll take one of my famous digressions to take 30 seconds. Because this is funny. So a psychologist that I really like is the late Nathaniel Brandon. I really like his theory of self-esteem.

[00:29:49] So he was a psychologist who was his big claim to fame in addition to his theories about self-esteem. But his big claim to fame was that he was also a real influential early figure in the objectivist movement. So the movement of philosophy around the ideas of Ayn Rand. And actually, he and Ayn Rand were having a relationship, a romantic relationship. There was this big age gap between them.

[00:30:17] But they were, for a time, romantically involved. And then that kind of fell apart. So they had this big acrimonious break. And this is the stuff of legend. You can Google this and find all the dirt on the Ayn Rand, Nathaniel Brandon messiness. But the point is that he went on to have a career as a psychologist and contributed really valuable stuff about self-esteem. And I love his theories.

[00:30:41] But my point is that when he had that break from what some might consider a cult, a philosophical cult, objectivism. I don't know if you guys know anybody who's into Ayn Rand. And very few people are casually into Ayn Rand. They name their children after her? The copies of Atlas Shrugged kind of look like a Bible, and that's, I don't think, a coincidence.

[00:31:09] But anyway, when Brandon left, now he had been one of the real influential early figures for spreading objectivism. And he wrote a scathing series of articles after he left. And one of the points that he made in one of the things that he wrote was he says, you know, look, I know, this is him saying this, I know objectivists who will say to me that there are no flaws in this logic. There are no flaws in the system. There are no holes.

[00:31:39] And he says, to that I say, or he says there are objectivists who say, like, I can justify everything in this. And to that I say, the hell you can. To rationalize everything. He says, I was at the forefront of this movement. I know where the holes are. And I think that every movement has that, right? Yeah. So you get away from Nexium, you get away from Landmark, you get away from whatever, Tony Robbins.

[00:32:04] And you can say, you know, look, there can be movements and philosophies and frameworks that even if they have lots of valuable ideas, come on, I know. Look, I'm a Tony Robbins fanboy in some ways. I know where the holes are in those frameworks, right? I mean, I also have a doctor in psychology, but you don't need to. Anyway, that's the one digression. The more I learn, the more I feel like we know nothing, you know? Right.

[00:32:33] Which is amazing. Like, I love that. Yeah. But that's why, like, one of our most basic kind of lessons or warnings to people is anybody who tells you they know everything and they have the answer and their, you know, philosophy is airtight. Like, no. Nobody does. Yes. I just read the book. Oh, my God. Michael Pollan's latest book, A World Appears. And it's very interesting.

[00:33:01] It is all about consciousness. And so he talks to a whole bunch of people about, like, what is, what is, what does it mean to be conscious? And what do, what does the philosophy, what does the science say about, like, what is consciousness? Where is it? Can we, do we know where it is? Like, is it in the brain? Have we figured, where are we on figuring this out? Which is becoming a more and more interesting question as we're dealing with AI.

[00:33:32] And he kind of ends the book being like, I don't know, I think I'm more confused than I was when I started writing this book. Which I really appreciated because it's like, yeah, we just, we just don't know.

[00:33:46] And, you know, especially when you're asking some of these, one of the things I found really interesting in this book was the idea that it is almost impossible for us to objectively understand consciousness because we are always trying to understand it through the lens of our own conscious reasoning. So it's impossible.

[00:34:08] So it's impossible. You can't get away from it.

[00:34:36] It is because I don't come out and say, look, I'm the expert. This is how it is. But we even see in, like, so when I put out content on my socials, which I have a fairly large audience, like, we see a massive difference. And, like, even if I adjust the tone slightly and I never intentionally take, like, an authoritative tone, like, I would, like, you'll never catch me, I hope. Like, you'll never catch me saying, okay, I'm the expert and here's what it is.

[00:35:05] But in posts where I talk about, like, look, I'm a fellow traveler and I don't know, like, this is what works for me. But, like, when I talk about that, those perform less well than posts where, again, like, absent any context about me or knowing that that's my position, like, if you hear me talking like an expert, those posts, believe it or not, perform pretty well. Well, especially when the post escapes my ecosystem. It's interesting.

[00:35:34] Like, we kind of keep track of, like, when I have a post that gets kind of big because, you know, it plays however it plays to my core audience. But then, like, as more people share it, like, we say that it escapes my ecosystem, kind of the core people who usually see my stuff. And that's when you see a lot of different kinds of responses that we don't normally see. Right.

[00:35:56] But especially when a post kind of escapes my ecosystem, like, again, if you can hear it in a more authoritative sense, those are the posts that tend to do well. And I don't love that because I don't, that's not my schnick. Yeah. Well, you know, this gets back to the well-intentioned practitioner. Right? Yeah.

[00:36:18] So, we talk about training large language models in the context of AI and how they're training on all of the things that we have already produced and written. But the internet and social media has been training all of us to produce content that has this kind of false authority to it or that has polarized opinions.

[00:36:41] And when you're just trying to make it in this sea of content and you realize, oh, this post, when I tweak it this way, it performs better and I can get my stuff in front of more people. It's training us to take on a certain voice that maybe isn't very authentic and isn't really very true.

[00:37:03] And that's where, you know, one of the ways that I think not, maybe not the LGAT that you started volunteering for, but just your effort to be an internet presence starts to train you to do things that are a bit unethical. So, yeah. Yeah. Or at least uncomfortable.

[00:37:26] I mean, yes, there's unethical, but there's also, like, you feel, it feels like, we've talked about this a lot, you know, just as a group about, you know, part of why Sikh isn't this giant movement with hundreds of thousands of people and millions of dollars pouring in in part is because we're not willing to do some of that stuff. You know, not willing. Because I lead with, I don't know anything. Well, it's not just the certainty.

[00:37:50] You're talking about the certainty factor, which definitely attracts, you know, I mean, that's a huge part of, you know, the brain wants an answer, you know. It's still one of my favorite books of all time, What Makes Your Brain Happy and Why to Do the Opposite. But it's built into us, and, you know, so of course it's built into the algorithms, and, you know, and then it just grows. Like, it's just spirals. Like, we made a monster, and the monster is getting bigger than us, you know?

[00:38:19] Like, it's just out of control. And it pushes everything into that direction. But it's also people keep feeding that. If we keep feeding the monsters, we're going to keep getting monsters. So, you know, I work really hard on my personal social feed, and even my professional ones. But to, you know, I'm very careful about what I like and share, and if, you know, false information gets up there. And for the most part, I have a pretty great feed, actually.

[00:38:48] And that's kind of useful. And, you know, I mean, even the ads are pretty great, you know. Although it's a little behind the times. It keeps feeding me ads for something I just bought. I'm like, catch up, catch up. I've noticed that, too. Have you noticed that? It's like, I buy something on Google. I mean, and I didn't access it via Facebook or anything. And then all of a sudden, Facebook's, like, feeding me up, like, everything. I'm like, hello, bought that on Amazon two days ago. You're behind. Catch up. Yeah.

[00:39:16] But it's, you know, we, there is something for us as consumers, as, you know, people to put in that pause. Like, I've really learned to not, like, if I find myself instantly reflexively responding to a post, I have a rule that I cannot hit send on that for at least five minutes. Hmm. Just to call myself, like, whoa, wait a minute. What just happened there?

[00:39:44] Like, I just, you know, and learning about our own psychology, and this is what I appreciate about your post so much, Glenn, is, you know, I've learned a lot about just the, I've learned a lot about the world of somebody with living with complex trauma. And I have my own versions of, you know, trauma. I think we all do to some extent. The more I study it, the more I'm like, we're all traumatized. Which is not to dismiss it. It's to, like, an invitation to learn about it, right? Mm-hmm. And, but I've, you know, understand a lot.

[00:40:13] Like, you'll say things, I'm like, oh, that's what Elaine was trying to say to me when she had that crazy, hysterical, disassociated, manic fit. You know, and, and I think people do want that. I think they want authentic content. They want that kind of stuff. And we have, it's a discipline. It, I just helped somebody launch a book, and her book is about how to be a leader in the age of AI.

[00:40:40] And, and she kept making that, she's a former Air Force person, so I'm like, no wonder she's talking about discipline. But I thought that was a good way to frame it, actually, is like the discipline to, you know, not do all, not feed those monsters. And, you know, what, what can we do to not feed those algorithmic monsters? Mm-hmm.

[00:41:01] You know, that's, and, and to really put our likes and our stuff behind things that really forward our, you know, values and whatnot. And I don't know about, because as I walk around in life, there's way more good people. Like there's, I'm really shocked. I just recently moved to a small rural community. And half the people here are like politically totally at the opposite end of the spectrum of me and whatnot. But you know what?

[00:41:30] These are neighbors that would do anything to take care of each other. Yeah. Amazing. Like my husband couldn't get out to work today because a tree had fallen in the road. There was three people there with chainsaws in 10 minutes. Mm-hmm. You know, to like clear the way. And what our politics were, you know, what our beliefs were, what our da-da-da-da, none of that matters. And none of that's part of it. And I think we, I, I'm forever the optimist, but I do think we can create that world. But we have to get conscious. Glad you're studying that. Yeah.

[00:42:01] And we have to think about it. And that's why, you know, so when we do the summit on building solutions, that's kind of part of the aim is like, well, how do we do it better? Yeah. How do we do it safer? How do we do it more ethically? And how do we take care of the damage that we have done? Yeah. So that was another key piece. The session with, you know, Glenn and Jaret and Rachel Bernstein. I mean, that's something else I've come to recognize in the last couple of years and working with you guys is like, we can't, we also can't talk about solutions without talking about healing.

[00:42:32] And recovery. And because there's, what happens is people just roll from one to the next. They roll out of one group, get into a relationship, get out of relationship, roll into a group. You know, they just roll from one thing into the next. And even I have been saying this for two years and I'll find my, I'm unwinding from a business situation where I made several decisions and I can see, you know what made that decision was my cult mindset. My cult personality. Like, cause there were things I didn't know.

[00:43:01] I didn't think to look for. I knew to look for them in this other context. I didn't know to look for them over in this one. But the patterns are the same. The dynamics are the same. So learning that is important. And that's such a big piece of Sikh's work is that educating people about, well, wait, what is a safe practice? What should you be looking for? You know, to, to see that. And as a consumer, what should you be maybe thinking about or know about yourself before you go shopping?

[00:43:32] A piece in the compass about actually knowing your morals and knowing your strengths and your weaknesses. I was like, well, that's a novel idea. It seemed obvious once you said it, but like, and knowing what my teaching style is, like what I really resonate with and what I can get taken over by. I mean, come on. Like charismatic, confident sounding, good looking guy. Hello. I'm in. Yeah. For at least 10 minutes.

[00:44:02] Yeah. Before my brain returns. I think we're very much living in a world like all of us, but then, and then we see this replicated in the self-help industry. You have to really be a very active participant in what's happening. I think when we're passive, there are just so many things that are going to steer for us into a certain direction.

[00:44:28] And we really have to be very active and conscious in, you know, like you're saying, like really cultivating the things that we're consuming. Cultivating the way we talk and the way we interact with people. If we just kind of sit back and just kind of, you know, take the, take the little river boat, it's going to, it's going to pull us in a direction we might not want to go in.

[00:44:58] Well, and there's a few key things that if you know, and I've learned this in my work with you guys and whatnot, but there's a couple of things. So somebody promising a answer, like, okay, that's a red flag. Like, um, one of the other things we saw in the Chris class this week was what underlies almost all self-help is this idea that is wrong. So we need to question, we need to start questioning some of these things.

[00:45:26] So no pain, no gain. I have, I started questioning that. You know what? Maybe when I started looking at my own life, like I do get gained sometimes from joy. Like I don't have to put myself into pain, but that's, that's a huge part of the landmark formula. You know, you have to go into the depths, you have to go into the darkness, you have to get, you know, all that. Maybe that's not so true.

[00:45:46] And we were questioning this week, the whole thing about, um, like what, as I'm taking apart the distinctions, I keep finding a fallacy that's underneath, which is you are the source of everything in your life. Mm-hmm. That is a bullshit lie. And every self-help, human potential, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, has some version of that.

[00:46:13] And you start taking these distinctions apart, 100% responsibility, context is decisive, like blah, blah, blah. What I'm about to do is, I'm going to do a, I'm figuring out how to do this, the landmark won't sue me, but I'm doing a series of it. Mm-hmm. Oh no, Glenn, all you have to do to have everything in your life work is shift your perspective. Mm-hmm.

[00:46:39] Reframe how that trauma was for you, and you, you'll be cured. Wrong! Yeah, and when it doesn't work, it's not because the idea was at fault, it's because you didn't implement it properly. It's the same, you know, the same idea as the law of attraction. Yeah.

[00:46:56] Well, and that's the thing, that idea is so seductive that I cannot overstate how seductive that idea is, that we can be 100% responsible. Like, so something that we frequently have to unwind and trauma work is that belief that we somehow deserved or caused or participated in.

[00:47:27] Yeah. Our abuse or neglect or something. In fact, sometimes survivors can even get to the point of like, well, maybe I didn't cause it on purpose. Yeah, it was subconscious. Right? Mm-hmm. Or past life or something like that. Like, because this, we are so resistant to this idea that there are things that we cannot control. Well, it's one of the reasons why step one of the 12 steps is the step about powerlessness, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:47:57] It's because that's the, it's the worm at the core. It's this idea that we can or should or that it's even possible for any one thing. By the way, this doesn't just apply to whether we are completely in control of our experience. If anybody comes at you with any idea, like blank is completely too, you know, for any, for something. Like, that idea is wrong. Mm-hmm. It's far more nuanced and complex.

[00:48:25] And it's tough because we also have to, in trauma work, we also have to be very clear about the fact that because reality is complex and most things are multi-determined. Okay, does that mean maybe I'm not to blame for my trauma? Was I a little bit to blame? Is there nuance there? Like, and the answer to that is no. Like, that's actually a black and white thing. Like, no. Like, you can't make somebody abuse you. You can't attract abuse.

[00:48:52] You can't, you know, there are things that make us vulnerable to abuse. But even in these last 30 seconds as I get into this, we understand how messy it all is. And, of course, we're seduced by this idea like, man, you're going to sell me a solution that not only I can know the answer, but I'm in charge of the answer. Like, I'm empowered, quote, unquote. We'll put that in quotes, right? I'm empowered by this answer.

[00:49:22] I'm going to get an answer. And it empowers me. Holy, sign me up, right? Yeah. It's so seductive. It feels really good for a minute. Yes, of course. You know, it's a high. It feels really good for, I mean, I remember I used to say all this. So the joke in the S training is, you did the S training and you found out you were an asshole and your life didn't work and that set you free. That you were, wherever you discover you're the asshole in the room, blah, blah, blah. I used that. I lived by that.

[00:49:49] I still get caught up in it sometimes. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm the one who had it wrong. And then all of a sudden I'm like liberated. But am I really? You know? And I mean, sometimes there's something, yes, there's worth me seeing where I, you know, maybe had an impact I didn't understand and hurt somebody or, you know, whatever. Like they take these little grains of things that are a little bit true and then just amplify them, like blow them up so big.

[00:50:16] And I love what you just said about, that was really good about being vulnerable versus being caused. I was vulnerable to something. It's not that I caused it. And then, because then now that points me in a direction I can go to work on, well, what made me vulnerable? What's the vulnerability? And how do I manage vulnerability, which is different from changing myself fundamentally? How do I fix myself?

[00:50:44] How do I fix myself because I'm broken and I attracted this terrible experience? Now, you betcha. Right. Well, and how do I never be vulnerable again? I mean, I spent a lot of my life working on that. Yeah, I can tell you at 57, that's not a thing, folks. Save yourself. You're always going to be vulnerable to somebody somewhere or something. You know, today we were vulnerable to a tree falling down the road, you know, in cat's work. So, like, as human beings, we are vulnerable.

[00:51:10] And I think that, to me, that's the thing that we're most uncomfortable with and that we're fighting all the time. Like, how can you make me not vulnerable, Dr. Glenn? You know, I'll pay you about anything I can for that. Well, Anne, if you will pay me anything, we can talk after the show. Oh, okay. You can send me, so you can PayPal me. I can send you a bad check. That's how I registered for the first landmark form. You know, I actually did that. I wrote a check. Back when you, remember when you could write checks?

[00:51:38] Like, you could write a check and then you had a couple days to get the money in there. Remember that? Kids these days don't even know what a check is. No. Oh, my gosh. You know what? The U.S. Treasury doesn't issue checks anymore. I used to get my tax refund via check, but no more. I had to give them my U.S. bank account, which I don't have. But, yeah, no, nobody's getting checks anymore. I remember an old Jerry Seinfeld routine where he was, it was from the 90s,

[00:52:06] and where he was kind of making fun of the idea of checks. It's like, okay, I don't have any money now, but here's a note from my bank that says, if you just go to talk, it's like a note from your mother. Like, if you just talk to these people, they'll give you some of my money. But now that it seems so crazy and antiquated, speaking of amounts of money transfer, and you were talking about the algorithm being a little slow on the uptake.

[00:52:32] Like, as you both know, I recently became engaged to the love of my life. And to do that, I got a beautiful ring that we got custom made and whatever. And every social network saw that purchase. Yes. And now my Pinterest feed specifically is overrun. Like, the Facebook feed is more responsive to what I clicked on lately.

[00:53:01] Yeah. So today it's shown me all energy supplements. But Pinterest specifically is drowning me in ads for diamonds and rings and stuff. And I want to know, what does Pinterest think I'm making these days? And how many times am I going to get engaged? And are you into polygamy? I mean... But it also shows the weakness. I loved your guys' recent episode. You were talking about AI.

[00:53:31] And Glenn, you told this really great story about a book. Like, you were in Grok and you had some book. And it lied to you about whether it had read the book. Straight up lied. That was very illuminating. So it turns out, like, we think that AI has all the knowledge of humanity. No, it doesn't. It has all the shit on the internet. It has not read all the books. It doesn't seem to have read very many books at all, to be quite honest. It's read the commentary about books. And that was like... I was like, oh, that's so great.

[00:54:01] So can you imagine... Okay, here's how we could get really rich, you guys. We got to find some tech nerd that can help us figure out... Somebody's going to steal this idea. Watch because we're saying it here. It needs to get predictive. Okay, you bought a diamond ring. What comes next? I thought for sure you were going to say, Glenn, Pinterest is the best place to plan your wedding. Don't you know? Like, it's amazing. Basically a wedding board. Yes. They should be showing you, like, you bought the ring.

[00:54:30] I don't need to see rings. That's past. That's in the past. Catch up. No, no. It should be showing you tuxedos and wedding dresses and venues and all kinds of stuff. So I feel the need... Just type wedding once and then that'll all come. I feel the need to state publicly and clearly that I'm not into polygamy. Just FY, just in case anybody... Just for the record. Just for the record. I don't have the attention span.

[00:54:57] I mean, I don't have the desire, but I really don't have the attention span. Anywhere. That's hilarious. Okay, coming back to the summit. But so, you know, Anne, you were largely responsible for designing the structure of the day and making sure that we had a balance of topics.

[00:55:19] Like, so we did hit updates on SICS efforts to support legislation, trying to put some guardrails around the still largely unregulated self-help industry. But then we kind of pivoted to what we were just talking about, that Chris Shelton and John Atak session, about just the dynamics of undue influence and coercive control and all the culty stuff.

[00:55:43] But then we kind of segued into me and Rachel Bernstein, you know, talking about, and Jurette, talking about what healing looks like. Because, you know, we're really, you know, as an organization, SICS is really mindful of the fact that there are people across the spectrum here. There are people who are interested in self-help and who are at risk of being harmed.

[00:56:12] There are practitioners who want to practice legally and effectively. And there are folks who are kind of in this cleanup period, this aftermath period, you know, trying to really understand what the hell happened. They had the best intentions and they thought they were being smart and they were functionally lied to by the industry and by their gurus and stuff.

[00:56:37] And so I think the way that we kind of put all this together, and if you guys go to SeekSafely.org, you're going to find opportunities to, you know, you can watch the whole thing. You can, you know, for a donation, you can watch the whole thing or bits and pieces. But, you know, something that I really valued about the way that you put together the day was that it hit kind of multiple points on our compass of what's important to us as an organization.

[00:57:06] Like, again, we're not, you know, we never really thought of this organization as a watchdog. We never really thought of this organization, nor did we think of this organization as only supporting survivors, right? Like, you know, we really feel it's important to have conversations about each of these areas. So, Amanda, the event was, I think, a really strong one and really reflective of kind of our values as an organization. We did great. Yeah, it was awesome. So, yeah.

[00:57:35] There was a couple people, I'm going to put this up on the Seek blog as well. We have it up on Illuminate. I want to get it up on Seek website. But, you know, a neuropsychologist, 83 years old, been in, you know, personal development. He was actually, he actually led the very first forum with Werner. So when Werner transitioned from the S training to the forum in the, I think it was like 1980, 81, something like that. Anyway, this guy, Dr. Edgar Woods, he was part of that.

[00:58:05] He was there. He was on the stage. And, you know, he read my book because his son handed it to him and said, Dad, I really want you to read this. And they started having some tough conversations about what it was like growing up with an S trainer in a form, you know, which was, it's a thing. And, you know, and he wrote me, he said to me at the end, he was just like, oof.

[00:58:31] He goes, wow, I was in a cult. Which for him to say that was monumental. And I was shocked even. I've been working pretty closely with him for about a year now and on different projects and different things. And he, and I said, okay, well, what's the value of that for you? Because you could see it was kind of painful. You know, it was a painful insight for him to see that. And it was difficult.

[00:58:59] And that's why it's important to me that we always talk about healing because that's the piece everybody wants to bypass. They want to bypass healing. They want to be done. I'm good being done. But what do you mean healing? Recovery, right? Like, no, no, no. I don't have anything to recover. I feel fine. Yeah, until you're in the next one, right? I'm out. But he said, so I said to him at the end, I said, well, wait, well, I said, that's amazing that you're saying that. And what's, like, what is that? Why do you see that as valuable?

[00:59:28] Why do you see that as valuable? I know why I saw it as valuable. And he said this, I'll never forget. He goes, I haven't had compassion for people. I've had answers. I've had all kinds of coaching. I've had all kinds of da-da-da-da-da. But I haven't had compassion for people that fall under undue influence. And this guy's a trainer. I mean, he's worked with big corporations. He's worked with thousands of people, like, whatnot. And he goes, I love people.

[00:59:57] Like, I have compassion for people as people. But I haven't had compassion. And I had challenged him once a few months ago to never talk about the Cartman drama triangle again, which I would be happy if nobody ever talked about the Cartman. And because he uses that all the time, I'm like, can we just stop vilifying victims already? Can we stop making the point of everything in life to, you know, be the predator and not be the predator? Rant is forthcoming. I will stop it right here.

[01:00:23] But that was huge. And, you know, I asked him, I said, well, what out of the day, like, what opened that up for you? And he said, he said, it was kind of a little bit of all of it, seeing it all together. Seeing, you know, Gene and I did a session at the very beginning of just about why is it a thing? You know, why, you know, why do we? Yeah, why does this conversation matter? Why does this even happen, you know, and like that.

[01:00:51] And so the education, the legal, law, policy, accountability, and healing, to me, it is, they do go together in a really, really important way. And it was tough. It was a long day. We're still talking about it. Watch for the next one. Might be spread across a couple days. I don't know. We haven't decided yet. Because on the other hand, it's easier to carve out a day and, you know, dedicate to that, right?

[01:01:17] But it was a lot of information, which is why folks go, you can go by the recordings. A big portion of that goes to support Seek Safely and their ongoing mission and work. And then you can watch it in chunks. Yeah. Take notes and re-watch things. Take notes, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And you get also all the free gifts, too, right? Like, so, you know, Jaret gave a session.

[01:01:44] I love how generous our, you know, contributors are. Yes. We're giving away free Illuminate Life platform membership for life. Like, it's yours for life. And as we're building a platform where you can connect with safe practitioners, Jaret is giving away a great class in her writing to Reckon. You know, so there's a, so even if you couldn't be there live, like, getting the recordings is great.

[01:02:13] Oh, and then we should say one little shout out to all the amazing people that were there that shared and asked questions. Like, it wasn't a lecture series. It was a conversation. Yeah, they were great, great participants, really great questions. And I love that format because, you know, then we can see, like, what are people responding to and maybe where are the holes? What is something we want to talk about? And then we can always incorporate that right into our conversation.

[01:02:40] So, yes, thank you to all the participants, both observers and, you know, presenters. And now we also have a community group, too. So for people who were at the summit or get the summit recordings and whatnot, there's a private community group. No ads. No algorithm listening to you and serving up a million, bazillion other ideas. It's just an online group with other people.

[01:03:09] Tick prevention or engagement rings, whatever floats your boat. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. So we'll have lots of notes in the show notes here for where you can go find things. Thank you. Thank you both for joining us for this conversation. And I'm looking forward to going back and re-watching things myself. So, yeah, it's pretty great. Somebody just did a whole bunch over the weekend. I was like, yeah, yeah. This is awesome.

[01:03:38] It was a good thing it was a rainy day, actually, because I was like, yeah, it was a second right in. So thank everybody who tunes in week after week to the Seek Safety podcast. We love you guys. If you love our podcast, please feel free to drop by the podcast catcher of your choice and leave us a glowing five-star review. If you don't like our show, feel free to forget I said anything.

[01:04:08] Find us on the socials at Seek Safely. Find me on the socials at Dr. Doyle Says. You ever going to see a return of the self-styled life, Jean? Yeah, it'll come. It'll come. Jean is about to transition into being a full-time grad student. I am. So we got some – what am I talking about? You're going to have less time. Dear Lord. I know. So, but the journey toward Dr. Jean. You should blog that.

[01:04:37] You should blog the journey toward Dr. Jean. Yeah. I might. I might. Anne, where can we find your stuff on the internets? We can – the easiest, follow me personally, Anne Peterson. That's the quickest. And then Illuminate is our platform that we're building really aimed to be the platform partner for Seeking Safely, that you can find programs, products, and services that have committed to the Seek Safely values. And not just committed to that, like, and we're like, they take it seriously.

[01:05:07] They're going to – as we were at the very, very beginning, we're just starting to build it, but very, very excited about that. And so are the practitioners, because I'm running into a lot of practitioners that are like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, like how I've struggled with how to communicate this. And we're banking on collaboration is going to be the thing that hooks the algorithm, but that our collaboration versus all of us having to do yucky, weird stuff. So anyway, so that's – but it's a weird spelling, so check that out in the show notes.

[01:05:36] My name is Munchie. Anne Peterson. I talk about it all the time. Jean, do you want to know, before we end, do you want to know, the joke that's making its rounds among my family now, my little girl? Yeah, let's hear it. So I tell – so three kids, got the 9-year-old, the 12-year-old, the 14-year-old, and we all love exchanging jokes.

[01:06:04] And the great thing is, when I feed a joke into the system, I often get that joke back from one of the other members of the system. It's a great system. I love it. Okay. Here's the joke. Do you want to hear a construction joke? Sure, yeah. I'm still working on it. That's good.

[01:06:26] It's so appropriate to my life right now, as I sit in the shout-out of my forever semi-frame house. Thanks for tuning in, everybody. Catch you on the internet. Thank you, guys. All right. Bye-bye. Ciao, ciao. Thanks for listening to this episode. We hope that you have found it enlightening, and we'd be so, so grateful if you'd share it with the seekers in your life. We all know at least one, right?

[01:06:57] Until our next episode, you can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Seek Safely. Connect with Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle at Dr. Doyle Says. And me, Jean, at Jean Brown on Twitter. Feel free to send us an email, info at seeksafely.org. To support Seek Safely, you can make a secure donation on our website, seeksafely.org slash donate. The Seek Safely podcast is produced by Citizens of Sound.