SEEK Safely Podcast (Taylor Edition) with Brit Barkholtz (Part 2)

[00:00:00] At Seek Safely, it's our mission to empower seekers to have a safe and meaningful self-improvement journey.

[00:00:07] Why do we care? Seeking to be your best self is an amazing, beautiful human impulse that has led us to create art, invent technology, tell amazing stories, and reach the moon.

[00:00:19] But we saw the dark side of self-help in 2009 when a recklessly run self-improvement retreat led to the death of three people, including my sister, Kirby Brown.

[00:00:30] We want people to seek to dream their big dreams and chase their beautiful goals, but we want to make sure they're safe along the way.

[00:00:39] This podcast is about education and empowerment and getting real about the promises and problems of self-help.

[00:00:46] We talk with people who understand and care about the self-help industry and everyone it touches.

[00:00:52] I'm Jean Brown.

[00:00:53] I'm Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle.

[00:00:55] And this is the Seek Safely podcast.

[00:01:00] So, Britt, do you think coming back to your situation, which is a great word that I'm totally going to use?

[00:01:17] Because we're all in such...

[00:01:18] Had you not heard that word before today?

[00:01:20] I've not. I love that.

[00:01:21] How is that possible?

[00:01:23] We're in a situation here, Abby Road.

[00:01:27] Abby Road says, our situation is I need some treats. That's our situation.

[00:01:32] I keep telling you that. Yes.

[00:01:35] What do you take... So, I'm so curious.

[00:01:38] So we talk about kind of the cult thing, the MLM culty thing where they suck people in.

[00:01:46] And I'm a big believer in the fact that, like, look, when we get sucked into cults, particularly when the cult...

[00:01:57] We're going to say that word a lot.

[00:01:59] And somewhere Steve Hasson's head is exploding.

[00:02:02] Like they're not all cults, guys!

[00:02:06] We're using it colloquially.

[00:02:08] We are. We are. We are.

[00:02:10] Actually, Ginny Brown's head is going to explode.

[00:02:12] Culty.

[00:02:13] Ginny's head is going to explode. She doesn't like that either, actually.

[00:02:16] Like she encourages us to say cult-like tactics.

[00:02:19] And that's fair.

[00:02:21] Fair.

[00:02:22] See, Ginny, I listen to you.

[00:02:24] No, I mean, we make a lot about...

[00:02:26] So people get sucked in and I happen to believe it's not a choice.

[00:02:30] Like if people get manipulated, like I mean, it's a form of trickery, right?

[00:02:34] Like they're being sold a bill of goods, being tricked.

[00:02:36] Again, I don't think people choose to get indoctrinated and programmed and conditioned by cults any more than they choose.

[00:02:42] Any more than they choose to get indoctrinated and conditioned by trauma.

[00:02:45] Like it's something that happens.

[00:02:47] What's your take on...

[00:02:49] So the dude, do you think he was a true believer?

[00:02:52] Like do you think he actually thought that this would help you with your eating stuff?

[00:02:56] I don't know. Maybe.

[00:02:59] I don't know.

[00:03:00] That's such a wish-washing answer.

[00:03:03] I think that like, he probably felt it would at least in some way be helpful.

[00:03:11] I think it's the kind of thing of like, oh, I think that this could be helpful maybe at like a one or a two on a scale of one to ten.

[00:03:18] But I'm going to sell it to you.

[00:03:20] I'm going to pitch it in a way that makes it sound like it's an eight out of ten kind of thing.

[00:03:24] Because yeah, I mean, I do think that for most people who get pulled into MLM stuff,

[00:03:31] like there is at least at the beginning a certain level of like genuine belief and buy-in.

[00:03:37] Which is why also like, maybe I should have made this disclaimer sooner.

[00:03:41] But I will say that for as much as I rage about MLMs and anybody who knows me for more than like a day knows that.

[00:03:50] Like I do...

[00:03:51] One of the things that I hate about them is how predatory they are and how they exploit vulnerable people.

[00:03:57] So I can't...

[00:03:58] Like I need to make it clear that I also then acknowledge that so many of the people who are perpetuating the various tactics that I hate

[00:04:08] are those vulnerable people who are being exploited.

[00:04:11] So I'm not trying to like, like I'm not justifying shady behaviors that people get into.

[00:04:18] And I'm also not victim blaming because it starts out in this place where you get pulled into it.

[00:04:27] You don't go into it being like, you know what?

[00:04:30] I woke up this morning thinking I want to try to find a way to exploit my relationships

[00:04:36] and capitalize on any potential goodwill that I have with anybody to scam people that I know.

[00:04:44] Like nobody's waking up and deciding to do that, right?

[00:04:48] No, that's it.

[00:04:50] Like, you see it so clearly in MLMs because it's like basically everyone except for the people at the top are also buying, right?

[00:05:00] So they're simultaneously victims and perpetrators of the whole thing.

[00:05:04] The same thing is true in a lot of the big self-help organizations like we talked about Landmark.

[00:05:10] You know, we use this term with Anne Peterson one time.

[00:05:13] We talked about the middle management level of self-help and she really liked that because it's again all these people who they themselves went into it

[00:05:21] and went through it and got pulled in.

[00:05:23] And then their, you know, their whole life has become about this organization.

[00:05:28] So then their whole life and their businesses reliant upon them pulling in more people.

[00:05:33] So I agree.

[00:05:34] I think that's an important thing to acknowledge that people play these kind of dual roles,

[00:05:41] but their first step is themselves as a customer and as a victim of the whole thing.

[00:05:48] So.

[00:05:49] Yeah.

[00:05:50] I think there's an extent to which once you're in, you need to reduce cognitive dissonance, right?

[00:05:59] Like, so if your dude has, is all in on this, on these supplements and stuff,

[00:06:06] and he's kind of accepted that he's going to be, you know, trading on his relationships.

[00:06:13] Like he's, like he's, he's okay with this.

[00:06:15] Like he's decided he's okay with hocking the stuff to his girlfriend and his peeps.

[00:06:19] At that point, cognitive dissonance kicks in.

[00:06:22] He has to convince himself that actually this is awesome.

[00:06:25] Like actually.

[00:06:27] Well, and they always use that thing, right?

[00:06:30] They always say if this thing is so amazing to you, if you love this and this has been so transformational for you,

[00:06:35] why wouldn't you share it with all the people in your life?

[00:06:39] That's actually a way of showing how much you care about them that you're going to share this amazing thing with them.

[00:06:44] Right.

[00:06:45] Well, and then they talk about like, oh yeah, you know, you promote things all the time without getting any credit for it.

[00:06:51] Like, like even it's funny because in this case I'm thinking about even just a few weeks ago,

[00:06:56] I know that Glenn and I, we had this conversation because I literally asked you about what protein shakes you use.

[00:07:03] So it's like that thing where somebody would say, you know, this advocate person would say, well, okay,

[00:07:08] so you were like whatever recommendation either of us may have given the other, you didn't get anything out of that.

[00:07:14] Wouldn't you like to have that same thing?

[00:07:17] But now you can make money off of it.

[00:07:19] Like it's that same conversation, but now you get rich from it.

[00:07:22] Like, yeah.

[00:07:24] Capitalism at its finest.

[00:07:26] Yeah, there you go.

[00:07:27] That's our bingo card when Gene brings up capitalism.

[00:07:31] No, no, no.

[00:07:34] The SeekSafely bingo card is Gene taking a shot at capitalism and me bringing up James Arthur Ray.

[00:07:43] Oh, there it is.

[00:07:45] You made it like an hour before you did that.

[00:07:47] I was waiting for it.

[00:07:48] Yeah, I really did.

[00:07:49] Well, James is operation.

[00:07:52] Oh, by the way, James, Brett is part of the James Arthur Ray blocked club.

[00:07:59] Yes, he blocked me on one birthday.

[00:08:02] That's true.

[00:08:03] What did you do?

[00:08:04] Happy birthday.

[00:08:05] Tell the audience what you did, Brett.

[00:08:09] Well, I may or may not have tweeted at James asking him if he wanted to wish Glenn a happy birthday.

[00:08:16] Blocked.

[00:08:17] Immediately blocked.

[00:08:20] I was really polite.

[00:08:21] I don't understand.

[00:08:23] But James, but his stuff was structured as an MLM.

[00:08:28] Hell, he had a pyramid he would show.

[00:08:31] And if you watch Enlighten Us, there's a scene of James throwing up the pyramid of his events, right?

[00:08:39] Like they were progressively, and this is very common with self-help teachers where

[00:08:44] they'll have the most expensive event at the top and then it goes down from there.

[00:08:51] But there's very typically a referral program if you refer somebody else to the event that

[00:08:59] you get at least a discount on the event.

[00:09:02] Which Lord knows you need because his events are expensive as hell.

[00:09:07] You bet.

[00:09:08] But it's the same thing.

[00:09:12] You then have skin in the game and the cognitive dissonance thing kicks in.

[00:09:18] So since you are now hocking the event as well as attending the event, you are now

[00:09:24] incentive to sell yourself on how awesome the thing is because now again, like you're

[00:09:30] kind of responsible for the other person's involvement in it.

[00:09:33] So you kind of have to, again, convince yourself, not only convince yourself of

[00:09:38] how awesome it is, but you're also incentive to look away from any of the shortcomings

[00:09:43] and any of the dark spots and whatnot.

[00:09:46] It's just gross.

[00:09:49] It gives me this image of people just being kind of folded into this system, you know,

[00:09:56] where it just kind of wraps around the person so completely that then it's really hard

[00:10:01] to get out of it, which again is why we... culty.

[00:10:07] You bet.

[00:10:09] Yeah.

[00:10:10] I think kind of the take home message that we're circling around here is that,

[00:10:16] I mean, self-help broadly.

[00:10:18] Like so MLMs tend to be part of that self-help ecosphere and for some reason

[00:10:24] that's pervasive like it happens with products, it happens with events.

[00:10:28] Like you see this MLM thing on so many levels in the self-help ecosphere.

[00:10:34] I've always found that really weird and maybe I shouldn't.

[00:10:38] Like maybe it's sufficiently saturated with possibility thinking in the secret

[00:10:44] and whatever that, then maybe I shouldn't be shocked about that.

[00:10:47] But what we're circling around here is that, you know, look,

[00:10:51] the target audience for self-help products and services including MLMs

[00:10:55] are people who have serious pain in their lives

[00:10:58] and often pain that should be addressed with medical professionals,

[00:11:04] whether we're talking therapy, whether we're talking medical doctors, etc.

[00:11:09] Like disordered eating is no joke.

[00:11:11] You know, disordered eating, Britt, you would know this way better than I would.

[00:11:14] Like disordered eating deadly.

[00:11:16] Yeah?

[00:11:17] Yes.

[00:11:18] Yeah.

[00:11:19] I don't know if this is still exactly true because the most recent stats I never know

[00:11:24] because it kind of fluctuates along with substance use disorder.

[00:11:27] But generally like anorexia is considered to have the highest mortality rate

[00:11:31] of any mental health diagnosis.

[00:11:34] Yeah.

[00:11:35] You bet.

[00:11:36] You bet.

[00:11:37] I mean both you and I work in specialties where the stakes are actually pretty high.

[00:11:43] Like it's very, very common for an eating disorder work

[00:11:47] for there to be serious medical complications.

[00:11:51] It's very, very common in complex trauma work,

[00:11:54] both you and I do for self-injury and suicidal ideation to be part of the symptom picture.

[00:12:01] And this is one of the reasons why we did a whole episode about trauma

[00:12:07] and T.O. Swan on whom I have a secret crush.

[00:12:12] We all know this that, you know, I know.

[00:12:15] You're not so secret.

[00:12:18] Jean is shaking her head and disgust.

[00:12:20] Sorry, Glenn.

[00:12:21] I know.

[00:12:22] T.O., call me.

[00:12:23] What's your take on?

[00:12:25] Are you familiar with T.O. Britt?

[00:12:28] Yes.

[00:12:29] Do you have any thoughts on her?

[00:12:31] I don't know that I have any thoughts that haven't already been said by everybody else.

[00:12:36] Everyone, yeah.

[00:12:37] She's familiar with T.O. because I won't shut up about it.

[00:12:40] Anyway, no, I mean it's one of the reasons why T.O. by the way,

[00:12:45] one of my favorite parts of our Ann Peterson episode.

[00:12:48] I don't know if this was on the air or off the air,

[00:12:50] but I mentioned T.O. Swan and I don't know if I mentioned T.O. Swan,

[00:12:54] but Ann had terrible things to say about T.O. Swan.

[00:12:57] I'm like, well, T.O. gets a trauma survivor.

[00:13:00] You know, she gets kind of like, come on.

[00:13:03] Okay, okay.

[00:13:04] Yeah, Ann was like, you guys were way too nice.

[00:13:07] She did.

[00:13:08] Oh yes, that's right.

[00:13:09] Ann, we love you.

[00:13:10] We're going to have you back.

[00:13:11] We need to have Ann back by the way.

[00:13:13] We need to email Ann.

[00:13:14] For sure.

[00:13:15] Anyway, no, one of the reasons why it's such a big deal,

[00:13:18] kind of the stuff that T.O. and other trauma focused self-help providers,

[00:13:24] one of the reasons why that's a big deal is because this is no joke,

[00:13:27] that the stakes are pretty high, pretty high for trauma,

[00:13:30] pretty high for eating disorders.

[00:13:32] And then the self-help culture has zero problem exploiting

[00:13:36] the anxiety that tends to give rise to these disorders,

[00:13:39] has zero problem setting itself up in opposition to medical treatment

[00:13:46] and psychotherapy.

[00:13:48] And by the way, like I'm not saying psychotherapy is awesome.

[00:13:51] There are plenty of bad therapists out there.

[00:13:54] You know, I'm always going to be the trauma recovery guy

[00:13:57] as opposed to the trauma therapy guy.

[00:13:59] That said, when you got stuff like complex trauma

[00:14:03] and eating disorders and stuff,

[00:14:05] like you can't be setting yourself up in opposition to responsible medical treatment,

[00:14:10] right?

[00:14:11] That could be really, really dangerous.

[00:14:13] But what Britt's story is an example of,

[00:14:15] like self-help culture has no problem,

[00:14:18] has no problem doing exactly that.

[00:14:22] It's a kind of thing that SeekSafely has been talking about for years,

[00:14:29] this fact that, you know, like self-help will come to skies as your friend.

[00:14:33] It really will.

[00:14:34] Like self-help will come and say, you know, look,

[00:14:37] we have answers for you that the establishment doesn't want you to know about.

[00:14:42] The medical establishment, the psychotherapy industrial complex doesn't want you to know about.

[00:14:49] Yeah, well, we've always talked about how the industry exploits these vulnerable people

[00:14:56] and how vulnerable people are in a particular position to be exploited by self-help.

[00:15:02] Yeah, we've talked about that a lot.

[00:15:04] Maybe we should include Swifties in that sector of vulnerable populations.

[00:15:09] I mean, the Venn diagram of Swifties and trauma survivors is,

[00:15:13] it's got to be damn near us.

[00:15:15] Almost a circle.

[00:15:18] I mean, I think that like the, yeah, as far as with the MLMs

[00:15:25] and like the eating disorder piece in particular, it's especially worrisome, scary, etc.

[00:15:33] Yeah, because of that, the high stakes and the like risk of worst case scenarios.

[00:15:39] Like there are certain MLMs or self-help things where like a worst case scenario

[00:15:45] maybe that you get sucked into this thing that like isn't actually as,

[00:15:49] you know, helpful or life changing as it promised it would be

[00:15:53] or you know, that sort of thing.

[00:15:55] But like when you're getting into these MLMs that have all of their various like supplements

[00:16:01] and nutritional whatever and you're starting to exploit,

[00:16:05] but like in particular with disorder eating stuff,

[00:16:09] like you can quite literally get into deadly situations, right?

[00:16:14] Like that detox tea that you're shilling is,

[00:16:19] you know, you're actively messing with somebody who's probably already

[00:16:23] in a medically compromised position.

[00:16:25] And so like the your detox tea that is actually just a glorified laxative like,

[00:16:31] okay, maybe we can kind of like joke about how it's a glorified laxative.

[00:16:34] But if you then are having somebody who is already not taking in enough food

[00:16:39] or struggling with a like compensatory pattern where they're purging in some capacity, etc.

[00:16:45] You throw that into the mix and now like people have literally died of dehydration

[00:16:50] because of these sorts of things, right?

[00:16:52] And they get away with it because their thing is, well, we didn't tell you to do that.

[00:16:56] It wasn't actually our detox tea that killed you.

[00:17:00] It was the fact that you were using it to excess in conjunction with these other things.

[00:17:05] So that's on you babe. That's not us, right?

[00:17:08] And they get away with it.

[00:17:09] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:11] Well, it's, you know, it would be an interesting like we've talked about how,

[00:17:16] especially with trauma, we've talked about this, how people are using this as a marketing tool.

[00:17:23] Oh, we're going to help you heal your trauma.

[00:17:25] And we're saying you really should not do that if you're not qualified to help people

[00:17:29] because you might quickly get yourself in a situation where you're just way out of your depth.

[00:17:35] And, you know, what I hear you saying in terms of targeting people,

[00:17:40] especially with eating disorders is getting out of your depth can quickly have some really, really terrible consequences.

[00:17:49] Where, you know, it's just like you don't, if you don't have that expertise

[00:17:53] and you don't have that background to actually help people in these situations,

[00:17:57] like it's just not where you want to go.

[00:18:00] We can kind of bring everything full circle to where we started at the top of this episode.

[00:18:07] Brett Creckme of Humrong, Taylor Swift has talked kind of publicly about her struggle with disordered eating, right?

[00:18:15] She has.

[00:18:17] Tell us about this.

[00:18:19] Well, I mean, I think that she's been public about it.

[00:18:23] I think probably the first time that she actively like spoke about it would have been in her documentary that came out in 2019.

[00:18:30] But it was kind of a thing that was one of those people kind of suspect and kind of wonder based on context clues well before that.

[00:18:40] But yeah, I mean she's like one of the most famous people in the world

[00:18:45] and is subject to constant scrutiny about every aspect of her life, including her body.

[00:18:52] And she has a very physically demanding job in like in the sense of touring, right?

[00:18:59] Like I don't know if you...

[00:19:01] I don't know, like if people who have not been to a Taylor Swift show are aware of the level of physicality that is involved in performing for three hours.

[00:19:10] But it is, it's a lot.

[00:19:11] It was exhausting for me to stand for three hours in a concert, let alone actually be doing the like performance that she was doing.

[00:19:21] She changes her outfits and costumes so much.

[00:19:25] Like that in and of itself would be exhausting.

[00:19:28] I watched the Ares tour.

[00:19:30] Like to change your outfit like seven times is just...

[00:19:34] Yeah, so you have this like very physically demanding thing where it's like there's a reasonable thought of like,

[00:19:43] oh, I want to make sure I'm taking care of myself because I have I'm doing these shows night in, night out.

[00:19:49] And so she's talked about how that combination of I'm trying to keep myself healthy to stay at the top of my game for what I love to do.

[00:19:59] And there's always this, you know, critical eye media fan, you know, Twitter trolls, etc.

[00:20:07] Like that are making comments about my body and the combination of those two things led to a...

[00:20:16] It sounds like, I mean, she hasn't talked very much about any specifics, which I think is actually good because I think that when celebrities get into specifics about things like that,

[00:20:26] it can be really dangerous for people who are actively in things and see things as aspirational when they shouldn't be.

[00:20:33] But it seems like it was pretty severe for her at least at a certain point.

[00:20:37] And I mean, thankfully she's Taylor Swift. She has access to a lot of resources that maybe the average person doesn't.

[00:20:46] So it sounds like she was able to work through that in whatever way that she needed to.

[00:20:52] But it's, I think, is a good reminder that it's not something that you can't just have a good life and then be immune to it.

[00:21:03] Right? It's not a going back to the piece about things not being choices.

[00:21:08] This can happen to anybody and you're not immune to it just by nature of having money or having fame or enjoying your job or insert a thing here or...

[00:21:19] Or being brilliant or being loved, right?

[00:21:25] Which is why I think there's always going to be a market for this stuff, right?

[00:21:31] There's no end point where we're all healed. We're all perfect. We're all actualized.

[00:21:39] It's just, it's constant. So there's a constant market for all of these things.

[00:21:44] In recovery as opposed to recovered. I mean, I was thinking about this, Brett, when...

[00:21:50] So when that documentary came out and someone close to me made me watch it.

[00:21:57] I can't imagine who would make you do that. It sounds a little bit like a hostage situation.

[00:22:02] Just a lot of bed.

[00:22:07] But that's, I mean, that's where I was first aware of Taylor and her eating issues and the fact that she had been at all public about it and whatnot.

[00:22:18] And that's what really struck me was like, so here's a woman who is extraordinarily famous and very beautiful and regarded as super competent at what she does.

[00:22:33] If not brilliant and whatnot. And yet, she still struggles.

[00:22:38] And you can also see in her lyrics, right? Like you can also see that she struggles with a lot of things that many survivors, many trauma survivors would recognize.

[00:22:48] And it kills me that so many survivors, regardless of how smart they are, regardless of how accomplished they are.

[00:22:55] I mean, a lot of us feel like just losers for struggling with any of this.

[00:23:00] And we're so frustrated with it. And we've got to get down on ourselves.

[00:23:04] Like the fact that Taylor could kind of speak to the fact that, you know, now I mean she lives a life that's very different than most of us and yet still struggles with these things.

[00:23:17] I thought it was just such a useful, just such a great use of her platform and her reputation.

[00:23:26] Get it? Yeah.

[00:23:28] Reputation Taylor's version, it's coming. We've been clowning for it for two years now, but I swear it's the next one.

[00:23:36] 31, 31 songs.

[00:23:41] Right? It was a lot.

[00:23:43] And she like released so the first half of it, like she put out the original album at midnight.

[00:23:49] But then the last like the 15 tracks for the second L that she put out at 2am.

[00:23:56] So it was a late night. I've seen several great memes that I really relate to that are like, okay Taylor, like you've done the like a 3am edition of midnight.

[00:24:05] And now you've done your 2am, you know, anthology tracks for tortured poets.

[00:24:10] Like when are we going to get the like 730pm version?

[00:24:14] Because I don't think we're going to bed.

[00:24:17] Just saying. Just saying.

[00:24:21] All right, well let's close this episode with if you could recommend, Brett, if you could recommend.

[00:24:31] I know.

[00:24:33] Like three Taylor Swift songs for trauma survivors or those who struggle with eating or whatever just those who struggle.

[00:24:46] So it's so top three as far as you're concerned. I'm putting you on the spot here.

[00:24:49] I didn't.

[00:24:50] You are. You didn't tell me to prepare for this.

[00:24:53] That said, I know you a little bit and I have confidence that you can give us your top three therapeutic Taylor Swift songs.

[00:25:07] One of them is clearly the Boat Murder Song, right?

[00:25:10] No? You don't think so?

[00:25:12] No. No. Also, I want to be clear she doesn't murder him with or on the boat.

[00:25:19] The boat is used for body disposing purposes, but you continue to imply that she has been murdered on the boat.

[00:25:27] Straight up. Straight up kills a guy on his boat.

[00:25:29] No.

[00:25:31] It's brutal. It's brutal.

[00:25:34] Is the guy she kills Mr. Perfectly fine? Is that the guy? Oh my God.

[00:25:39] No.

[00:25:40] Is that the other verse? No? Okay.

[00:25:42] No, because the guy that she kills is someone who cheats on and kills her best friend.

[00:25:47] So it's not someone that she personally has dated, whereas Mr. Perfectly Fine is about someone that she dated.

[00:25:53] Is it Dr. Heath?

[00:25:55] No, it's not.

[00:25:58] Well, you know, that's a bet he is relevant in this conversation because he does have all of those stupid tweets about

[00:26:05] here is my nutritional advice for you that will cure your depression.

[00:26:10] That's true. So Dr. Heath is a guy we talked about. Jean, we talked about Dr. Heath in our episode on the manosphere.

[00:26:19] Yeah.

[00:26:20] And yeah, Dr. Heath is one of these guys, right? Who is all about fasting in particular.

[00:26:25] Like fasting is a huge theme of Dr. Heath.

[00:26:28] Yeah, I love to talk about fasting.

[00:26:30] It's a very common theme in the manosphere of, you know, your psychological problems.

[00:26:34] God, Britt, were you the one who brought my attention yesterday?

[00:26:38] The thing about therapists don't want you to know that a $30 gym membership was at you?

[00:26:44] Yeah.

[00:26:45] There's this tweet from some dude, bro, Jean, who says therapists don't want you to know that a $30 gym membership is often more, more helpful than a $150 therapy session.

[00:26:59] And he's right as a therapist. I don't want you to know that because that's not true.

[00:27:03] He's right.

[00:27:05] That's the correct part of the tweet.

[00:27:07] He's got it.

[00:27:08] I do not want you to know that.

[00:27:09] Anyway, so okay, so three therapeutic Taylor songs that you as someone who has used Taylor's music in your own therapy, in your own recovery journey.

[00:27:21] What do you think?

[00:27:23] All right.

[00:27:24] Therapeutic. Okay, so maybe the first one that would come to mind would be off of her album Midnight's The Song You're On Your Own Kid, which is a good portrait of a kind of like it's the through line of the song is speaking to originally

[00:27:46] like the it starts out in this kind of sad place of you're on your own and it speaks to some things that have been difficult for her.

[00:27:53] But toward the end of the song, the chorus that includes the line you're on your own kid changes and goes to you're on your own kid, you can face this.

[00:28:04] You're on your own kid.

[00:28:06] And it is kind of that message of, yeah, you, you are able to take care of you.

[00:28:13] You can do this for you.

[00:28:14] You can be that person for you.

[00:28:16] And incidentally, that song actually does reference her struggle with her eating disorder, which is not why that came to mind for this question, but is a nice coincidence.

[00:28:27] Let's see what would be another one?

[00:28:31] What do you think of the therapeutic slash recovery value of anti hero?

[00:28:36] I think that it is a good it has therapeutic potential.

[00:28:42] If approached in the correct way, which I think that this is about to see now I'm going to you're making me sound like the it's like I'm the QAnon.

[00:28:52] Swifty there.

[00:28:53] I'm going to attempt to explain what Taylor Swift was thinking when she wrote this song and her intent behind it.

[00:28:58] Swift and on.

[00:29:00] Head up.

[00:29:01] Head up.

[00:29:03] So anti hero is not meant to be to it in my mind.

[00:29:09] I don't think that Taylor meant it as a literal accurate assessment of things.

[00:29:15] It is meant to be a portrait of her intrusive thoughts and things that she worries about and struggles with and insecurity and all of that.

[00:29:24] So I find that the therapeutic value in it would be in recognizing those thoughts for what they are that, oh, this is something that is maybe a belief about myself that I have been conditioned to believe or is being fed by anxiety or by previous experiences, etc.

[00:29:46] It is not actually a literal affirmation of I'm the problem.

[00:29:51] It's me.

[00:29:53] That's the piece that I like want to be super clear if somebody is taking that song as a therapeutic value, like it is Taylor acknowledging.

[00:30:01] Oh yeah, I worry that I'm the problem.

[00:30:04] I worry that I'm the monster on the hill that I'm a covert narcissist that I am, you know, all these things right.

[00:30:12] It is her worries about herself for insecurities, etc.

[00:30:17] And we all have those things and it is just good to be able to name.

[00:30:22] Oh yeah, when those things are coming up for me, maybe that's my, you know, that's my verse of anti hero about me.

[00:30:28] That's not an actual true thing about me.

[00:30:30] That's just a thing that would fit well in my version of that song.

[00:30:34] Sure.

[00:30:36] The stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, right?

[00:30:39] Yes, four stories that other people tell about us that get placed on us and that become difficult to discern from actual truth.

[00:30:49] Sure.

[00:30:51] So we got, all right.

[00:30:53] We'll give that one an honorable mention.

[00:30:55] We got, we got anti hero.

[00:30:58] What's what's what's what's one more?

[00:31:00] What do you think I'm going to go for a deep cut and we're going to go all the way back to 2006 debut album.

[00:31:07] The song tied together with a smile, which was written about a friend of hers who was struggling with an eating disorder.

[00:31:15] Like like like a friend of hers or like a friend, a friend.

[00:31:20] I think and I think like an actual friend because at this point in time, like I think it was one of her friends in high school because it's after her debut album and I believe that that's, I think she's talked about that before that that was the situation.

[00:31:33] It sounds like it was an actual friend, but I, you know, it very well could have been helpful to her own self at a later point in life because it is kind of a reminder to like again, it is in a sense it's more just descriptive of what her friend was going through.

[00:31:53] So like the message of it as far as like therapeutic value, like it's not necessarily providing any type of inspiration per se or like here is the message that you need to hear so much as it is highlighting that yes this is the things that you're feeling are things that you're struggling with.

[00:32:14] That's not something that's true to you and the pieces of highlighting that.

[00:32:22] Oh yeah, that's not how I view my friend these things that you are viewing about yourself are how you are viewing yourself right now that's that's through a filter that's through a lens of XYZ.

[00:32:35] But I see you for who you actually are. I see what you're actually going through and I don't think that you are defined by these struggles and things because kind of the in the chorus of it.

[00:32:50] Like she talked about like that nobody knows or you cry and you don't tell anyone and so it's acknowledging this piece of like oh yes I see what you're actually going through.

[00:33:00] And that is not representative of who you are that's just the thing that you're struggling with.

[00:33:05] So, all right, if you want to get a little bit of yeehaw Taylor.

[00:33:10] That's that's where we can go.

[00:33:14] Yes.

[00:33:15] So in this podcast we've provided a preview of what is colloquially known on the internet at least among our group of friends as as Taylor model therapy that's that that Brit has been pioneering here for for several years and Taylor trauma therapy model.

[00:33:35] Taylor trauma therapy model.

[00:33:37] So someday she's going to write a book about it.

[00:33:41] Well, I mean at the very least I'm going to do a training about it right we were just talking about this Glenn we need to get in on this whole trainings thing.

[00:33:50] We really do how to use.

[00:33:54] Britt and I are both consumers of the the continuing education products so in therapy land in order to maintain our therapy licenses we have to get a certain number of continuing education hours every every year.

[00:34:09] And then by far the biggest provider of these hours is a company called Pessie.

[00:34:14] I don't know what Pessie stands for something is PESI I don't know that's been it's Pessie.

[00:34:19] I think it's just a name I don't think it stands for something but I could be wrong.

[00:34:23] There's always all in caps so I assume it's a yeah that's true but it probably says it somewhere in one of the eight emails that we have probably gotten from them since we started this podcast.

[00:34:33] Well, it's remarkable that the Pessie products the seminars and stuff are great.

[00:34:39] The trainings are really really good.

[00:34:42] The marketing is is a horror show.

[00:34:45] It's MLM asks.

[00:34:46] It's MLM self help us.

[00:34:49] It is not only in the amount of emails that we get like we're constantly joking.

[00:34:56] We post screenshots on Twitter of like so many emails that we get and that's not saying anything the brochures begin to in a snail mail but the emails I Brett have you noticed that lately lately they're even getting like more manipulative like they're doing the thing they're targeted.

[00:35:13] They are they're like Glenn we're holding a spot just for you.

[00:35:18] I'm like okay Pessie you just you simmer down.

[00:35:21] I'm a therapist.

[00:35:22] They also they do the total MLM thing of their like this is a flash sale one day only we have slash prices will never be this price again and then two days later they're like oh so we've extended this sale or we're bringing the sale back and I'm like really because you told me you were never going to do that ever again yet.

[00:35:42] It's literally it's literally the spiel.

[00:35:45] Mark that bingo box again bring up James it's literally what James Arthur a would do it said we're not offering the seminar again until for 10 years or whatever they offered the next year.

[00:35:56] But it's that classic right it's that influence strategy of artificially creating scarcity.

[00:36:04] So you guys want to get into this now you want to start well we keep saying that we keep saying that if we really wanted to get rich as therapists like we're never going to get rich like our buy out.

[00:36:15] Or trading an hour of our time for for a fee but we need to get into this whole thing of offering these these trainings but that's kind of maybe someday I can be like Bussle and gay bore and and and all the other all the other time.

[00:36:31] Maybe you could be that the Taylor trauma model.

[00:36:35] We get Pessie can be sending me 10 emails a day talking about come on.

[00:36:41] Take good barcode straining on Taylor model therapy.

[00:36:45] Yep think about the lyrics they could incorporate into these promo emails.

[00:36:49] It sounds like a winning strategy because I feel like I don't I don't know maybe you guys have numbers on this but a huge segment of the therapy market must be the millennial generation so I feel like going the Taylor angle is probably a good way to go.

[00:37:08] There I mean I joke about it but it is not actually an exaggeration to say that a significant portion of my well and maybe this is like a selection bias kind of thing but like a significant portion of my clients have brought up Taylor lyrics in therapy context completely unsolicited by me.

[00:37:30] So I do think that this could be a legitimate thing.

[00:37:33] I tell you what for real like like delving into Taylor the Taylor verse is is is a cheap code for Swifties in therapy.

[00:37:44] I have a patient.

[00:37:46] See now I'm going to get in trouble for for identifiably talking about a page but I'm pretty sure she won't mind but you're talking about I mean very very difficult things and session and there's something there's such a thing and especially in trauma work called resourcing where.

[00:38:03] Where you shift from all the terrible stuff to do something that can be a positive P.E.F. a positive engaging focus as they say in the flash of trauma processing which now Britain.

[00:38:15] I'm Brit and I are now experts in the flash model of trauma process to positive because you did a Pesci training.

[00:38:22] Actually we got a couple weeks ago.

[00:38:25] I would like to be clear that we are not endorsing the flash model.

[00:38:28] Anyway but a positive engaging focus.

[00:38:33] Yeah and the idea is that it turns on different parts of the brain when you're talking about something that you love as opposed to something that is really really painful and it's a.

[00:38:43] Again it's a technique in EMDR where you shift to to to resourcing to turning on some of the some of the positive circuits in the brain and I found that when when you find you've got a Swiftie.

[00:38:56] Get them talking about it so I had this this one patient I'm thinking of you ever talking very difficult things.

[00:39:03] And I say alright so what are some of your resources what are you like like what makes you feel great who do you listen to that's a question I frequently ask who do you listen to.

[00:39:11] And I and I frequently asked folks to make me a playlist of what they're listening to and whatever as well.

[00:39:17] I mean I'm very into I'm very into Taylor and knowing this patient's demographic bracket I'm like that checks out.

[00:39:25] Tell me tell me tell me about Taylor and to watch this woman's state shift from from just just really flat and tearful the affect to to not not only happen like it was is not that there was like she was incredibly happy to be talking with Taylor.

[00:39:46] Tell me tell me tell me she was but she suddenly like her focus sharpened her cadence of her speech completely changed and she was like well I really like this album but this album is also great to but here's the thing about this album.

[00:40:00] And then like 10 minutes later and she's like has been more focused and proactive in talking about Taylor Swift, then, and, you know an hour of talking about other things but my point is that I really respect the level to which I mean, I'm sure part of this is done on purpose.

[00:40:19] Yeah, I like I think Taylor and her team really connect with with their audience in a profound way that I envy like somebody with a public presence I really envy that like I mean I really take seriously that connection with your audience and it's clear that she values that and she takes it seriously.

[00:40:36] So I get it and I love I should say this to I tweeted this the other night when when Britt was having some feelings about the tortured poets department.

[00:40:48] If you go back on some Brits Twitter is Bella B 13 at Bella B 13 on X.com.

[00:40:57] I would like to just say that 13 was my lucky number before I knew that it was Taylor's lucky number.

[00:41:03] People always ask me if the reason that 13 is my lucky number is because it's hers, it is not that's just a delightful coincidence.

[00:41:10] I decided that 13 was my lucky number when I was like in middle school before Taylor was famous and the reason that it was my lucky number was because I had asked someone in an elevator why there wasn't a 13th floor and they said

[00:41:24] because 13 is unlucky.

[00:41:25] And because I was in middle school, I said immediately without hesitation.

[00:41:29] Well, 13 is my lucky number.

[00:41:32] That is such a Brit story by the way it's like oh yeah well my lucky number.

[00:41:40] Anyway, so now Britt was Britt was having some thoughts about some thoughts and feelings about the torture poets department and I tweeted this I said you know look.

[00:41:50] I love when people I love are excited about and something excited about something they love and I love to watch people love things and it's so clear that you love and you value this woman and her music

[00:42:05] and I mean it dovetails with the passion that I see you.

[00:42:09] You know whenever you talk about things that you care about whether it's eating disorders and giving people the right kind of support.

[00:42:15] The only other thing that I've seen Britt explode in as much rage as she carries for MLMs is if somebody says on the internet some version of the old trope hurt people hurt people.

[00:42:31] You'll see the caffeinated therapist's head explode in rage.

[00:42:40] It's almost like we saw somebody once tweet shame is good actually like somebody was making the argument on the internet of shame actually shame is not so bad shame lets the weirdos know that they need to conform I swear to God this is what this person was saying.

[00:42:56] Shame kind of lets the weirdos know they've got to you know they can't be so weird right it's a shame.

[00:43:02] Some people should have been shamed more God actually said the follow up to it yes and and Britt's eyes were just doing the blazer thing all of which is to say you know I one of the things Britt I love about you.

[00:43:16] I mean I love many things about you but one of the things that I really love and respect about you is that you're really passionate about the things that you're passionate about.

[00:43:24] But you also carry such integrity like I've never seen you whether it's it's in public or private like I've never seen you say something and thought well gosh that's weird for her to say given that she claims to care about this.

[00:43:38] Right so I mean I view you as as as my experience of you as as really consistent you have a lot of integrity.

[00:43:45] And I'm so glad that we've had the chance to talk to you today on the seek safety podcast.

[00:43:52] So thank you so much for coming coming on our show.

[00:43:56] Thank you for having me it is an honor to be on you know the world's most famous podcast with Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle.

[00:44:09] Amazing thank you so much this is really fun.

[00:44:15] I was glad to exercise some of my Taylor feelings too it's really helpful.

[00:44:19] See all things are made better by including some Taylor content.

[00:44:24] I love it awesome.

[00:44:26] All right well again this is Britt Barkholtz and you are the caffeinated therapist on Twitter at Bella B13 and thanks so much.

[00:44:36] This was awesome.

[00:44:38] Thank you.

[00:44:39] Thank you everybody for tuning in to the seek safety podcast.

[00:44:43] Follow us on all the social things at seek safely.

[00:44:47] Follow Jean C Brown on on x.com and me at Dr. Doyle says if you liked us if you liked our show why not drop by Apple podcast or wherever get wherever get your podcast and leave us a five star review and if you didn't like us

[00:45:05] then forget I said anything how about how about that.

[00:45:09] We will talk to you all soon.

[00:45:11] Ciao ciao.

[00:45:13] Bye everyone happy ttpd listening.

[00:45:17] Thanks for listening to this episode.

[00:45:28] We hope that you have found it enlightening and we'd be so so grateful if you'd share it with the seekers in your life.

[00:45:35] We have one though at least one right until our next episode you can find us on Twitter Instagram and Facebook at seek safely connect with Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle at Dr. Doyle says and me Jean at Jean C Brown on Twitter.

[00:45:50] Feel free to send us an email info at seek safely.org.

[00:45:55] At seek safely you can make a secure donation on our website seek safely.org slash donate the seek safely podcast is produced by citizens of sound.