SEEK Safely Podcast (Taylor Edition) with Brit Barkholtz (Part 1)

[00:00:00] At Seek Safely, it's our mission to empower seekers to have a safe and meaningful self-improvement journey.

[00:00:07] Why do we care? Seeking to be your best self is an amazing, beautiful human impulse that has led us to create art, invent technology, tell amazing stories, and reach the moon.

[00:00:19] But we saw the dark side of self-help in 2009 when a recklessly run self-improvement retreat led to the death of three people, including my sister Kirby Brown.

[00:00:30] We want people to seek to dream their big dreams and chase their beautiful goals, but we want to make sure they're safe along the way.

[00:00:39] This podcast is about education and empowerment and getting real about the promises and problems of self-help.

[00:00:46] We talk with people who understand and care about the self-help industry and everyone it touches.

[00:00:52] I'm Jean Brown.

[00:00:53] I'm Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle.

[00:00:55] And this is the Seek Safely Podcast.

[00:01:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Seek Safely podcast.

[00:01:07] My name is Jean Brown.

[00:01:09] I've got my co-host, Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle.

[00:01:12] That's me.

[00:01:13] Hi, Dr. Glenn.

[00:01:14] Oh.

[00:01:15] Hi.

[00:01:16] Seek Safely Podcast, or as I like to call it, the Tortured Therapist Department.

[00:01:21] Right here.

[00:01:22] Yes, we have another tortured therapist with us today.

[00:01:26] We have a guest.

[00:01:27] We've got the chairperson of the Tortured Poets Department, I'd say.

[00:01:32] Yeah.

[00:01:33] So we have Britt Barkholtz with us.

[00:01:37] And Britt has a master's in social work and is a licensed clinical social worker.

[00:01:42] Britt specializes in complex trauma and eating disorders.

[00:01:46] She's also the caffeinated therapist on Twitter.

[00:01:50] We decided we're just going to keep calling it Twitter.

[00:01:52] And Britt is a trauma therapist in Minnesota.

[00:01:54] Britt, welcome to the Seek Safely podcast.

[00:01:57] Hello.

[00:01:58] Thank you for having me.

[00:02:00] Yeah, we're so excited to have you.

[00:02:01] And we know that actually you're like a Seek Safely podcast superfan.

[00:02:05] So.

[00:02:06] That's true.

[00:02:07] Yes.

[00:02:08] Yeah.

[00:02:09] Five stars every time.

[00:02:10] And one of Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle on Twitter.com,

[00:02:14] you're probably also a fan of the caffeinated therapist.

[00:02:19] In fact, in fact, I've told Britt often most of my patients who follow along

[00:02:24] my Twitter know her by name.

[00:02:27] They tell me no joke.

[00:02:29] They tell me things in session.

[00:02:30] They say, Hey, tell Britt.

[00:02:32] I listened to the latest Taylor album and I want to know what she thinks

[00:02:37] because I mean, in addition to being the caffeinated therapist and in

[00:02:42] addition to being a specialist in complex trauma and eating disorders

[00:02:47] clinically, in addition to being a Seek Safely superfan.

[00:02:50] She's also a superfan of a little known recording artist named Taylor Smith.

[00:02:56] What is it?

[00:02:57] Smithies?

[00:02:58] Swifties.

[00:02:59] Swifties.

[00:03:00] I can understand why you might not know.

[00:03:03] She's pretty new, kind of underground like indie artist.

[00:03:06] Yeah.

[00:03:07] She's pretty low profile.

[00:03:09] Yeah.

[00:03:10] So of course we're recording now on the release weekend of the tortured

[00:03:14] poets department album.

[00:03:16] And yeah.

[00:03:17] So I have an 11 year old who has gotten into Taylor Swift.

[00:03:21] So we started off our Saturday eating croissants and listening through

[00:03:25] the album.

[00:03:26] And it was like, it was a rough way to start the like talk about trauma.

[00:03:30] It was a rough way to start the weekend.

[00:03:34] Yes.

[00:03:35] Yes.

[00:03:36] I feel they need to give the disclaimer for Glenn specifically because he gets

[00:03:41] a little bit worried about me listening to sad music.

[00:03:45] I like talked myself through this whole album as I was listening to it at

[00:03:49] midnight, reminding myself like, Hey, remember you're not depressed.

[00:03:53] Taylor is like, we're just listening to this music or not letting it

[00:03:57] bring you into a place.

[00:03:59] But Britt said an example of using the trauma recovery skill of self talk

[00:04:03] and mental focus.

[00:04:05] I sure did.

[00:04:07] Good job.

[00:04:08] I get most worried about Britt, the caffeinated therapist when, when

[00:04:14] the Taylor lyrics start flowing on Twitter dot com at like 11 30 12

[00:04:19] at night.

[00:04:21] And suddenly I get a lot of re retweets of the Taylor, the Taylor

[00:04:27] lyrics bot.

[00:04:29] And like, Oh no, Britt, are you?

[00:04:32] Are you okay?

[00:04:34] I actually, but here's the thing about Taylor Swift.

[00:04:38] So, so Britt as many people listening to this now, Britt was the

[00:04:43] inspiration for, for me writing what we call the Taylor tweets, which

[00:04:49] so I tweet about complex trauma.

[00:04:51] And as it turns out, there's a significant overlap between complex

[00:04:54] trauma recovery and Taylor Swift lyrics.

[00:04:56] Who knew?

[00:04:58] So I've done for each album, for each Taylor Swift album, I've done

[00:05:02] like a series of tweets that, that, that incorporate Taylor Swift

[00:05:05] lyrics.

[00:05:06] It's kind of little Easter eggs for, for, for superfans.

[00:05:09] I already have ideas for you from the new album.

[00:05:12] I believe you do.

[00:05:14] I believe you too.

[00:05:16] But that's, there's a lot of material to mine in there.

[00:05:19] Well, the thing that kills me about, about Taylor.

[00:05:22] I mean, I'm a dear listeners.

[00:05:23] I promise Jean and Britt, we could start out this episode by

[00:05:26] talking about Taylor because we can't avoid it.

[00:05:28] I, the thing is she, she speaks so strongly to the experience

[00:05:33] of not just, you know, women in a certain demographic, which

[00:05:37] I think she's kind of known for it's like kids are into

[00:05:40] Taylor and, and, and adults are into Taylor and that somebody

[00:05:43] told me recently that they found in their 10 year old

[00:05:46] daughter's mad lib book written like like apropos of nothing.

[00:05:50] It doesn't love.

[00:05:51] It doesn't hate.

[00:05:52] It's just a difference.

[00:05:53] I'm like, she's 10.

[00:05:54] Oh no.

[00:05:55] She's 10.

[00:05:56] Anyway.

[00:05:57] I saw some of, you know, Taylor's messaging as she was

[00:06:01] releasing the album, just talking about look, this is like

[00:06:04] not a settling of scores or anything.

[00:06:07] This is just me exercising, like working through all of

[00:06:10] my feelings.

[00:06:11] And I was just like, this is actually a great example of,

[00:06:15] you know, using art to work through trauma.

[00:06:20] And I find that to be a much healthier way of doing things.

[00:06:24] And it's not prescriptive, right?

[00:06:26] She's not telling us what to do.

[00:06:28] She's just giving us this example of how she herself dealt

[00:06:31] with these experiences that she had.

[00:06:33] I think that's great.

[00:06:34] And we can all kind of find some catharsis in, in that as

[00:06:38] opposed to some of the other stuff we see when people

[00:06:41] are piping up about trauma and they start taking

[00:06:44] things in a less responsible direction.

[00:06:46] So we'll get into that.

[00:06:48] Sometimes she does tell us what to do.

[00:06:50] There's this song about a boat.

[00:06:52] Oh my gosh.

[00:06:53] I can't have this conversation with you again.

[00:06:55] There's this song about this boat and, and she,

[00:06:58] she's very directive in, in, in particular.

[00:07:02] And I don't know anywhere.

[00:07:05] You know, I want to say that Taylor is not

[00:07:08] advocating for murder, but she actually does have

[00:07:11] a lyric on the new album that low key sounds like she is.

[00:07:16] I really don't think she is, but it does,

[00:07:19] she does say I want to kill him.

[00:07:22] So it's very relatable though,

[00:07:24] because don't we all want to kill somebody at some point?

[00:07:26] I mean, that's just part of the human experience.

[00:07:30] Right?

[00:07:31] Everyone else feels that way sometimes.

[00:07:33] Okay.

[00:07:34] Learning new things about Jean Brown.

[00:07:36] Wow.

[00:07:37] The murdery side of me there.

[00:07:40] I mean, it's just a murdery side.

[00:07:42] You know, there is a time and a place for feelings of rage.

[00:07:45] And just because you have those feelings doesn't mean that

[00:07:47] you're acting on them.

[00:07:48] It's fine.

[00:07:49] We're going to get into where Britt experienced this

[00:07:53] feelings of rage here in just a few minutes.

[00:07:56] But before we do, so, so Britt,

[00:07:59] you're, you're our resident authority on all things

[00:08:03] Taylor and complex trauma.

[00:08:05] What are your impressions of the new album?

[00:08:07] Like what are broad thoughts?

[00:08:09] What's going on?

[00:08:10] I actually think that it is a fantastic like portrait of

[00:08:15] trauma processing.

[00:08:16] Like as far as somebody, it's very journalistic,

[00:08:19] which a lot of first up is, but in particular,

[00:08:22] actually, I think that that is part of the reason why

[00:08:24] there's a significant subset of people that probably won't

[00:08:27] like this album because it does feel,

[00:08:30] first of all, it's super long.

[00:08:31] It's 31 songs.

[00:08:32] 31 songs.

[00:08:34] Yes.

[00:08:35] Yeah.

[00:08:36] It's a secret double album.

[00:08:37] Oh my God.

[00:08:38] There is simultaneously a lot of repeated themes that

[00:08:43] will lead some people to be like, oh my God,

[00:08:45] why can't why is she going over the same thing over and

[00:08:48] over and over again?

[00:08:49] And also there is kind of a sense of being all over

[00:08:52] the place.

[00:08:53] So then there's going to be people who will say,

[00:08:55] well, it doesn't feel super cohesive.

[00:08:57] And I think that that tracks with what she said

[00:09:01] that it felt like an album that she had to write.

[00:09:04] And I think it's very much not marketed toward like

[00:09:06] she, I mean, her stuff will be successful because of

[00:09:09] who she is.

[00:09:10] But like this was clearly not an album written trying to

[00:09:13] like get, you know, album of the year or be on the

[00:09:17] radio.

[00:09:18] Like I can't, I'm sure there will be songs taken for

[00:09:21] the radio.

[00:09:22] Yeah.

[00:09:23] It's just it clearly is a thing of, oh,

[00:09:25] I was going through some things and this is how

[00:09:28] I process that.

[00:09:30] So I just needed to like vomit out all my thoughts

[00:09:33] and feelings.

[00:09:34] And I'm putting out this really long album because

[00:09:37] that's what came out of it, like it or not,

[00:09:39] this is just what it is.

[00:09:40] So, and I think that again, I think that actually

[00:09:43] speaks to trauma processing, trauma recovery.

[00:09:47] Like it is messy.

[00:09:48] It's not coherent.

[00:09:49] There are some things that you feel like you are

[00:09:51] stuck on over and over and over again.

[00:09:53] There are other things where you feel like you

[00:09:55] can't stick with it for even a moment because

[00:09:58] you're just bouncing back and forth from thing

[00:10:00] to thing to thing.

[00:10:01] It's very stages of griefy.

[00:10:03] There's the rage and the murder and then there's

[00:10:06] the tears and the suicidal ideation and you

[00:10:10] know, it's all over the place in exactly the

[00:10:13] way that one would expect it to be given the

[00:10:17] content and what prompted it.

[00:10:19] So I enjoyed it for that reason and for the

[00:10:23] like actual music of it all but I will not

[00:10:26] be surprised if there is a subset of people

[00:10:29] who are like meh, that's not my favorite of hers.

[00:10:32] Yeah, no I totally agree with your analysis.

[00:10:36] I think it's spot on.

[00:10:37] I enjoyed it too but I also, I'm kind of a

[00:10:40] bittersweet sort of person.

[00:10:42] I don't know if you read that book bittersweet

[00:10:44] but I'm, that's like, that is me.

[00:10:46] I'm right in there so I was like yeah,

[00:10:48] I feel real sad but it feels good too

[00:10:50] so it's okay.

[00:10:51] Yes.

[00:10:52] Might be the most Jean Brown sentence ever uttered.

[00:10:56] Did, Britt did you just coin the phrase

[00:11:00] stages of gravy?

[00:11:02] Maybe.

[00:11:03] That's pretty good to me.

[00:11:05] Not stages of gravy.

[00:11:07] Not stages of gravy.

[00:11:08] Yeah.

[00:11:09] No not gravy.

[00:11:11] Britt what, of the new songs, of the 30

[00:11:15] new songs, it's like the white one.

[00:11:17] 31.

[00:11:18] 31, it's like the white album.

[00:11:20] Which 31 by the way backwards is 13 so.

[00:11:23] Which is her, her special number.

[00:11:25] It is.

[00:11:26] Right?

[00:11:27] It is.

[00:11:28] I'm a 47 year old man who knows Taylor Swift's

[00:11:31] special number because I'm friends with you.

[00:11:33] Don't you know that?

[00:11:35] So of the 31 new, new cuts, what do you suppose

[00:11:40] are the songs, maybe the song or these songs

[00:11:44] that are most likely to be mentioned in

[00:11:46] therapy sessions that Swifties are going to

[00:11:48] be bringing into the therapist saying this one,

[00:11:50] this one.

[00:11:51] And you're going to get a bunch of your

[00:11:53] perfectionistic high achiever trauma kids

[00:11:56] bringing in, I can do it with a broken heart.

[00:11:58] Which is entirely about how, oh I'm so depressed.

[00:12:03] I act like it's my birthday every day and

[00:12:05] I'm hitting all my marks in my show with

[00:12:07] a giant smile on my face even though I want

[00:12:09] to die.

[00:12:10] Oh God.

[00:12:11] I mean that's not quite exactly how she

[00:12:14] says it but like, you know that's the

[00:12:17] digest of it.

[00:12:18] So I think a lot of people are going to

[00:12:20] find that relatable.

[00:12:22] What else?

[00:12:23] What else are people going to bring up in

[00:12:24] therapy sessions?

[00:12:26] I mean I don't know, I feel like any, depending

[00:12:28] on what people have going on there are a

[00:12:31] few, like I think especially with it like

[00:12:35] specific lyrics in places I think like even

[00:12:37] if people like an entire song doesn't

[00:12:40] speak to their experience there are

[00:12:41] enough like little one-liners of things

[00:12:44] that I caught that I'm like oh these are

[00:12:46] things that people are going to be

[00:12:47] like oh that's me or oh yeah I had

[00:12:50] that relationship or oh I felt that way.

[00:12:53] These are the lyrics she posted on

[00:12:55] Twitter with a commentary, ow ow ow ow ow.

[00:12:58] Yes, yes that's, yes, yep.

[00:13:02] I don't remember which lyrics I posted

[00:13:04] that with but I have done that multiple

[00:13:06] times and yes that would be...

[00:13:09] As I recall it was the after I fix me

[00:13:13] he's gonna miss me.

[00:13:15] Oh yeah.

[00:13:17] And I texted you and I'm like I like

[00:13:19] you what are you talking about?

[00:13:21] You don't need to be fixed, I don't want

[00:13:25] to miss you.

[00:13:26] What are you talking about?

[00:13:29] Okay but you feel like I'm some tweeting

[00:13:31] you with everything that I tweet.

[00:13:33] I do especially Taylor lyrics which I

[00:13:35] guess I should bring to my therapist.

[00:13:38] Why is Taylor singing about me at all

[00:13:42] times?

[00:13:43] Like well I remember like when rather

[00:13:46] early in our friendship right like

[00:13:48] you gave me a task list of songs

[00:13:53] you're like okay here you go here's

[00:13:55] the tutorial.

[00:13:56] I did.

[00:13:57] And I listened to like half of them and

[00:13:59] I texted you I'm like why are you so mad

[00:14:01] at me?

[00:14:02] As it turns out it's not just me

[00:14:05] like I'm a white dude like it's

[00:14:07] you know mad at me in the abstract

[00:14:11] demographic but no but it is

[00:14:15] super interesting how I mean and

[00:14:17] we can make jokes about projection all

[00:14:19] day we call it the Mark Ruffalo effect.

[00:14:22] There we go.

[00:14:24] Gene there's a so here's the thing for

[00:14:27] listeners dear listeners there are

[00:14:29] going to be so many Twitter inside

[00:14:31] jokes on this podcast because Britt

[00:14:35] and I live in this ecosystem of the

[00:14:37] Elonverse.

[00:14:41] There's a psychoanalyst named Mark

[00:14:43] Ruffalo who's not the Hulk guy he's

[00:14:45] not that Mark Ruffalo.

[00:14:47] No I refer to him as the bad Mark

[00:14:49] Ruffalo.

[00:14:50] The bad Mark Ruffalo.

[00:14:51] Yeah the other one's a good one.

[00:14:53] Mark Mark if you're listening Britt

[00:14:55] said it I didn't know her.

[00:14:58] Anyway he doesn't like me like he

[00:15:00] won't listen to this.

[00:15:01] He loves me he can't quit me.

[00:15:03] Right here's the thing like he

[00:15:05] has a crush on you but he doesn't

[00:15:06] like me.

[00:15:07] He kind of does have a crush on me

[00:15:08] I'll tweet something like a lot of

[00:15:09] therapists do this thing that I

[00:15:10] really dislike and he pops in my

[00:15:11] applies is tough tweeting about me

[00:15:13] and I'm like Mark.

[00:15:15] That's projection buddy but that's

[00:15:17] the thing I think a lot of people

[00:15:19] do that with Taylor I mean all

[00:15:21] lyrics I guess but Taylor lyrics

[00:15:23] like oh man she's see this is what

[00:15:25] I find interesting about men's

[00:15:27] reaction to Taylor Swift in

[00:15:29] particular they're like well don't

[00:15:31] she should assume responsibility

[00:15:33] she's part of the problem I do

[00:15:35] one of my friends who will remain

[00:15:37] unnamed I just say I'm waiting

[00:15:39] for that Taylor song it's like

[00:15:41] she made that song it's called

[00:15:43] anti hero the chorus is

[00:15:46] really me but what I find

[00:15:51] so interesting about that was like

[00:15:53] there's there are so few artists

[00:15:55] who can get people's backs up

[00:15:57] because again I think that's it's

[00:15:59] a testament to how relatable her

[00:16:01] content is both in terms of like

[00:16:03] yeah I identified with this

[00:16:05] experience on the one hand but

[00:16:07] also in terms of like oh no is

[00:16:09] me am I that guy oh no

[00:16:11] so it's I mean it's

[00:16:13] it's a testament to her

[00:16:15] artistry we're trying

[00:16:17] we're constantly trying

[00:16:19] to get Taylor Swift's

[00:16:21] attention on Twitter between me and

[00:16:23] Britt we're constantly tagging Taylor

[00:16:25] we're trying to so if

[00:16:27] on the off chance that Taylor Swift

[00:16:29] is listening to the seek safely

[00:16:31] podcast we need you to

[00:16:33] Britt's DMs are open for you

[00:16:35] for you only yes they're

[00:16:37] open and if she could just retweet

[00:16:39] this episode that would be

[00:16:41] she could really retweet this episode

[00:16:43] that would be amazing

[00:16:45] anyway how many people

[00:16:47] does Taylor Swift follow on Twitter

[00:16:49] Britt I think zero she doesn't

[00:16:51] follow anybody on Twitter

[00:16:53] I'm pretty sure I think on

[00:16:55] I think on all of her social media

[00:16:57] platforms like after she

[00:16:59] wiped them I want to say

[00:17:01] like 2017 I believe 2016

[00:17:03] 2017 she like deleted

[00:17:05] everything and

[00:17:07] so all of her stuff is only

[00:17:09] from that point forward and

[00:17:11] when she started over she didn't

[00:17:13] follow anybody because like people

[00:17:15] I mean

[00:17:17] I identify as a

[00:17:19] Swiftie I love Swifties also

[00:17:21] Swifties are crazy

[00:17:23] and there are

[00:17:25] a subset that are so

[00:17:27] what would be the word

[00:17:29] well let's frame this

[00:17:31] positively they're very observant

[00:17:33] and so it was a thing

[00:17:35] where it would be like oh

[00:17:37] within moments somebody would notice

[00:17:39] Taylor unfollowed this person

[00:17:41] on Instagram and then that

[00:17:43] was a conversation that had to be

[00:17:45] everything yeah so

[00:17:47] she now doesn't follow I think

[00:17:49] I think I'm both Instagram

[00:17:51] and Twitter she doesn't follow anybody

[00:17:53] maybe for many reasons but in particular

[00:17:55] I think for that reason

[00:17:57] because it's just it got to be a lot

[00:17:59] I think somebody could write

[00:18:01] like a dissertation about the psychology

[00:18:03] of like Swifties

[00:18:05] and QAnon people

[00:18:07] because it's like this like

[00:18:09] following of breadcrumbs is just

[00:18:11] like out it's yeah it's wild

[00:18:13] Swiftie

[00:18:15] Swift Anon

[00:18:17] T-Anon

[00:18:19] I've seen so many great memes

[00:18:21] being like it's really we should all be thankful

[00:18:23] that Taylor went like she became

[00:18:25] a musician rather than becoming

[00:18:27] like a serial killer

[00:18:29] or a conspiracy theorist

[00:18:31] like cult leader because

[00:18:33] she absolutely like feeds into

[00:18:35] that stuff specifically with a lot of

[00:18:37] the like theories and things like that

[00:18:39] like she tries to

[00:18:41] she's like I know that these folks

[00:18:43] have these leanings anyway so

[00:18:45] maybe I can channel this into

[00:18:47] fun things that I'm controlling

[00:18:49] she's doing the same thing

[00:18:51] that so another thing that

[00:18:53] Britt and I have in common is that

[00:18:55] were for huge Beatles fans

[00:18:57] and she's doing the same thing that

[00:18:59] the boys were doing with the Paul is Dead thing right

[00:19:01] yeah like the Paul is Dead

[00:19:03] thing makes an appearance and suddenly

[00:19:05] the white album, the double album

[00:19:07] has all these clues right

[00:19:09] like John is saying

[00:19:11] there's like some genius

[00:19:13] in this ability to create a very immersive

[00:19:15] experience for the fans that's like

[00:19:17] it just grabs people right Jean

[00:19:19] we need to start leaving breadcrumbs

[00:19:21] for our listeners to seek safely

[00:19:23] podcast

[00:19:25] yeah where are your Easter eggs for your

[00:19:27] I know I don't know if I'm

[00:19:29] organized enough

[00:19:31] for that but yeah maybe we'll

[00:19:33] give it a try

[00:19:35] we've already name checked

[00:19:37] Mark L. Ruffalo and Jonathan Shedler on this

[00:19:39] I think there are enough Easter eggs

[00:19:41] for our Twitter fans

[00:19:43] those would also make great squares

[00:19:45] on the bingo card

[00:19:47] if that is a thing

[00:19:49] that you are so inclined to do

[00:19:51] so

[00:19:53] one of the reasons why

[00:19:55] I've been wanting to have Britt

[00:19:57] on our show for a minute

[00:19:59] just because one she's an outstanding

[00:20:01] person she's an outstanding

[00:20:03] therapist I often say

[00:20:05] I've

[00:20:06] Jean can verify this I say that

[00:20:08] that when it comes to therapists I have

[00:20:10] two heroes one is Virginia Brown

[00:20:12] and one is Britt Barcoltz

[00:20:14] outstanding therapist

[00:20:16] and supervisor

[00:20:18] and probably

[00:20:21] the best

[00:20:23] eating disorder therapist

[00:20:25] that I know like when I have a question

[00:20:27] about eating disorders

[00:20:29] I go to Britt you know she's

[00:20:31] done her homework

[00:20:33] and she's a good student

[00:20:35] she's the type of student

[00:20:37] who has definitely done the extra credit

[00:20:39] I do love me some extra credit

[00:20:41] you do love you some extra credit

[00:20:43] I thought you were about to say I do love me

[00:20:45] and I'm like wow

[00:20:47] I know

[00:20:49] I was about to cheer

[00:20:51] I was about to say Britt

[00:20:53] we've taken some steps

[00:20:55] but something that I really

[00:20:57] love Britt about

[00:20:59] your public presence and a lot of people

[00:21:01] love themselves some caffeinated

[00:21:03] therapists but something I really love

[00:21:05] about your

[00:21:07] social media presence

[00:21:09] I mean you're very relatable

[00:21:11] because you speak to things

[00:21:13] that are important to you

[00:21:15] not just Taylor

[00:21:17] we also tweet a lot about eating disorders

[00:21:19] and

[00:21:21] Jean and I have recently

[00:21:23] been talking about

[00:21:25] the intersection of

[00:21:27] serious clinical

[00:21:29] issues like eating disorders and trauma

[00:21:31] we did a whole episode on trauma

[00:21:33] and self-help

[00:21:35] and of course the overlap with eating

[00:21:37] disorders and trauma

[00:21:39] is pretty significant

[00:21:41] I often say if you work with

[00:21:43] eating disorders you probably work with trauma

[00:21:45] and if you work with trauma you very likely

[00:21:47] work with the board of disorder eating as well

[00:21:49] but another episode that we

[00:21:51] recently did

[00:21:53] was on scummy MLMs

[00:21:55] and how they take advantage of the vulnerable

[00:21:57] people who tend to be seeking

[00:21:59] self-help products and services

[00:22:01] and that put me in mind of a story

[00:22:03] Britt that you once told me

[00:22:05] and I think I've alluded to it

[00:22:07] actually on the podcast before

[00:22:09] but maybe so I was wondering if maybe you could tell us

[00:22:11] about this story you know the one I'm talking

[00:22:13] about so you were in a

[00:22:15] I do

[00:22:17] well, situation ship

[00:22:19] yes

[00:22:21] and this person knew

[00:22:23] that you struggled with

[00:22:25] let me say disorder eating but you struggled

[00:22:27] with anxiety about eating

[00:22:29] and weight

[00:22:31] so tell us

[00:22:33] what happened

[00:22:35] yeah well I think

[00:22:37] the setting of this makes it

[00:22:39] even more of an absurd story

[00:22:41] because this literally happened while

[00:22:43] eating this happened at brunch

[00:22:45] because

[00:22:47] mess with brunch

[00:22:49] and brunch come on

[00:22:51] my favorite meal so

[00:22:53] like this was in my safe space

[00:22:55] which makes it even worse

[00:22:59] but yeah so we were

[00:23:01] at brunch and I

[00:23:03] remember

[00:23:05] like I knew that he had started

[00:23:07] you know like of course

[00:23:09] like they frame it as like oh well like I'm

[00:23:11] starting my own business kind of thing

[00:23:13] like that's the MLM deal

[00:23:15] is that you're like an independent set right

[00:23:17] like they try to make it seem very

[00:23:19] yeah you're an entrepreneur

[00:23:21] taking control of your financial

[00:23:23] destiny guys

[00:23:25] yes exactly

[00:23:27] so I knew that he had kind

[00:23:29] of started getting into this

[00:23:31] like that he had bought into this

[00:23:33] I don't think that it exists anymore actually

[00:23:35] I think that they were sued for being fraudulent

[00:23:37] and no longer exist but

[00:23:39] Advocare

[00:23:41] was the name of it and

[00:23:43] so he was very much the target market

[00:23:45] for this

[00:23:47] thing which I'm like I'm not saying that

[00:23:49] necessarily negatively is that he was

[00:23:51] a very prolific

[00:23:53] collegiate athlete and

[00:23:55] Advocare's whole thing was

[00:23:57] like they marketed towards

[00:23:59] serious athletes because

[00:24:01] oh our you know our protein

[00:24:03] powders our nutritional supplements

[00:24:05] our you know insert

[00:24:07] thing here like

[00:24:09] that was their

[00:24:11] high performance yes exactly

[00:24:13] so like it

[00:24:15] totally makes sense how

[00:24:17] he ended up in

[00:24:19] this track

[00:24:21] but I mean

[00:24:23] I don't even remember if there was a

[00:24:27] any particular like

[00:24:29] segue to it I really think

[00:24:31] that like we were just sitting there eating brunch

[00:24:33] actually the segue may have been

[00:24:35] I may have made a comment

[00:24:37] about what I was eating for brunch because

[00:24:39] that is a thing that would have happened

[00:24:41] and it was probably an anxiety

[00:24:43] driven comment

[00:24:45] and his response

[00:24:47] was well you know I've been actually I was

[00:24:49] meaning to talk to you about

[00:24:51] that because you know I've been

[00:24:53] I've been getting involved in this

[00:24:55] this Advocare I've been starting to

[00:24:57] sell this and you know I've

[00:24:59] really enjoyed a lot of the like

[00:25:01] products for it for my

[00:25:03] workouts and stuff like that

[00:25:05] and I know that like

[00:25:07] you like you worry about like

[00:25:09] food and weight stuff and there are some

[00:25:11] supplements that we have like there's one

[00:25:13] that is you know it's like

[00:25:15] all of your nutrients basically

[00:25:17] in like one supplement so that you

[00:25:19] don't need to eat as much but you'll still get

[00:25:21] all of your nutrients and there are

[00:25:23] a couple of protein powders that will

[00:25:25] make you feel full sooner so

[00:25:27] that you won't feel like you need to eat as much

[00:25:29] you know all these things and I

[00:25:31] remember just like sitting there

[00:25:33] kind of having an out of body

[00:25:35] experience because I was like

[00:25:37] I don't is this happening

[00:25:39] like this is this really

[00:25:41] is happening like you are

[00:25:43] not only

[00:25:45] using

[00:25:47] this information that you know about

[00:25:49] me that you know it's very personal

[00:25:51] that I don't

[00:25:53] really like

[00:25:55] particularly within like the details of this

[00:25:57] like this isn't a conversation that I have

[00:25:59] with very many people and particularly

[00:26:01] not in depth right like it's one

[00:26:03] thing to just say like oh yeah sure like

[00:26:05] this is the thing that I've struggled with but like

[00:26:07] he had the very in-depth knowledge

[00:26:09] of the situation for me

[00:26:11] I was like not only are you using that

[00:26:13] to try to sell this stuff

[00:26:15] but you're also using

[00:26:17] it like

[00:26:19] in the worst way right like it wasn't

[00:26:21] even like oh I know that you

[00:26:23] struggle with disordered

[00:26:25] things stuff and this stuff I think would

[00:26:27] you know help you

[00:26:29] to gain

[00:26:31] the weight that you need to gain or

[00:26:33] help you recover in XYZ ways like no

[00:26:35] no like it was the opposite

[00:26:37] way it was these are

[00:26:39] products that you know I know you always

[00:26:41] talk about how you want to eat less

[00:26:43] so here are some products that can help you do

[00:26:45] that well meanwhile like everybody

[00:26:47] in my life is like

[00:26:49] please dear god do not eat less

[00:26:51] so it was just this like very

[00:26:53] weird out of body

[00:26:55] experience and I was like

[00:26:57] I don't I do not remember what

[00:26:59] I said like I know that I didn't

[00:27:01] I didn't buy anything right like the

[00:27:03] the gist of my words was no

[00:27:05] but I don't actually remember

[00:27:07] what how I said no

[00:27:09] because I truly feel like I just

[00:27:11] like kind of dissociated in that moment

[00:27:13] of like this is

[00:27:15] an actual conversation we're having like

[00:27:17] I don't I cannot believe

[00:27:19] this like you are so

[00:27:21] and that was the thing that like just

[00:27:23] floored me about it

[00:27:25] is despite this

[00:27:27] the portrait of a person

[00:27:29] that this story might give like

[00:27:31] here's a genuinely like very

[00:27:33] nice person very smart person

[00:27:35] like I

[00:27:37] so it was this thing where I was just like

[00:27:39] this does not track with who you are

[00:27:41] as a person

[00:27:43] in so many ways like

[00:27:45] this feels really gross

[00:27:47] in a way that I don't think that you would be

[00:27:49] except that you have apparently gotten

[00:27:51] so pulled into this

[00:27:53] particular thing already

[00:27:55] that certain values

[00:27:57] or personality traits or whatever

[00:27:59] that I would recognize in you

[00:28:01] normally have clearly been said on a

[00:28:03] shelf so that you can

[00:28:05] be a part of this

[00:28:07] thing and that was really

[00:28:09] disturbing to me because I was like

[00:28:11] I can't think of another context in which

[00:28:13] he would have

[00:28:15] engaged with that part of my life

[00:28:17] in that way

[00:28:19] and it freaked me out

[00:28:21] it's very I think

[00:28:23] that's one of the reasons that

[00:28:25] people who've had experiences with

[00:28:27] family and friends who have gotten

[00:28:29] into MLMs are like oh man

[00:28:31] it's so culty because

[00:28:33] it creates almost like a personality

[00:28:35] change in people where like

[00:28:37] you're saying like you know

[00:28:39] the need

[00:28:41] to give the pitch

[00:28:43] suddenly takes over

[00:28:45] to the point where like all of their

[00:28:47] tact and sensitivity is suddenly

[00:28:49] out the window because they

[00:28:51] need to make that pitch right

[00:28:53] right I'm in that moment

[00:28:55] I was not a person with whom he had

[00:28:57] any like

[00:28:59] actual relationship with I was

[00:29:01] a like a target

[00:29:03] right like I was a potential

[00:29:05] mark to buy something and that was

[00:29:07] it right

[00:29:09] yeah had

[00:29:11] so were you aware

[00:29:13] that he like before

[00:29:15] he mentioned this at brunch like were you aware

[00:29:17] of it that he was involved

[00:29:19] with this MLM or that he was selling

[00:29:21] the stuff or

[00:29:23] well I was aware

[00:29:25] but I was not aware to the extent like

[00:29:27] that was what kind of like made me realize

[00:29:29] oh because the you know

[00:29:31] when he had originally told me about it

[00:29:33] I kind of viewed it as

[00:29:35] the thing of like

[00:29:37] oh okay yeah you found so you found

[00:29:39] this some like protein

[00:29:41] powders that you like and again he's like a very

[00:29:43] prolific athlete like

[00:29:45] track and field nationals very athletic

[00:29:47] so I'm like okay you found this like company

[00:29:49] that sells a protein powder that you like

[00:29:51] and now you know it's like

[00:29:53] and of course this is the way that they try

[00:29:55] to recruit people is the thing of

[00:29:57] like well it's basically just like a referral

[00:29:59] kind of program right

[00:30:01] like you you like it so if you become

[00:30:03] a part of our whatever

[00:30:05] you get a discount on it and

[00:30:07] then you can get other people a discount in

[00:30:09] this product that you like and

[00:30:11] so I just really kind of viewed it

[00:30:13] in the way that like

[00:30:15] I don't know my mom's best friend

[00:30:17] sold Mary Kay when I was growing up

[00:30:19] and she would get her lipstick from her best friend

[00:30:21] it's why like I kind of figured it was just

[00:30:23] this innocuous

[00:30:25] thing like that

[00:30:27] okay cool you and your protein powder

[00:30:29] but it that moment

[00:30:31] made clear to me like

[00:30:33] oh no

[00:30:35] you like really want to sell this

[00:30:37] this is not a thing of oh I just want the discount

[00:30:39] and maybe if I

[00:30:41] you know somebody's asking about it I can be like

[00:30:43] hey I have just the thing like

[00:30:45] no you are actively seeking out

[00:30:47] people to sell to

[00:30:49] and to the point that you are using

[00:30:51] this sort of

[00:30:53] tack to like

[00:30:55] go for it

[00:30:57] sure well and it's

[00:30:59] very

[00:31:01] reminiscent of a spiel

[00:31:03] we hear over and over again with MLMs

[00:31:05] of

[00:31:07] look the people in your life

[00:31:09] are going to be using similar

[00:31:11] products anyway

[00:31:13] so they may as well use the ones

[00:31:15] that you're selling

[00:31:17] like we're not asking them

[00:31:19] we're not asking the people in your life

[00:31:21] to buy anything

[00:31:23] or use anything in addition

[00:31:25] to what they would ordinarily use

[00:31:27] you know this

[00:31:29] and

[00:31:31] we talked about this a lot on our

[00:31:33] MLM episode

[00:31:35] but I mean it necessarily involves

[00:31:37] objectifying

[00:31:39] the people in your life right

[00:31:41] and

[00:31:43] Brett you're a therapist I'm a therapist

[00:31:45] we know about these things called dual relationships

[00:31:49] like our respective ethics codes

[00:31:51] discourage

[00:31:53] dual relationships

[00:31:55] so if somebody is your client they can't

[00:31:57] be also your

[00:31:59] for example protein powder dealer

[00:32:01] or anything else

[00:32:03] but why is that

[00:32:05] because like when you have one

[00:32:07] relationship especially where

[00:32:09] you know you're part of the

[00:32:11] relationship is you're taking care of that person as a therapist

[00:32:13] or whatever

[00:32:15] like I imagine probably similar if you're a trainer

[00:32:17] because we've seen a lot of

[00:32:19] trainers kind of get involved in these

[00:32:21] especially these nutritionally driven MLMs as well

[00:32:23] like you want

[00:32:25] that to be the relationship

[00:32:27] like so when there's another relationship

[00:32:29] or a dual relationship introduced

[00:32:31] well that kind of

[00:32:33] it necessarily colors and influences

[00:32:35] and skews the relationship

[00:32:37] that already exists now it's one thing

[00:32:39] when it's a professional relationship it's another thing

[00:32:41] and obviously a more complicated thing

[00:32:43] when you're hitting up just

[00:32:45] the people in your life the people you're in relationships with

[00:32:47] and

[00:32:49] well I think

[00:32:51] I know like when we did our MLM

[00:32:53] episode Ginny Brown

[00:32:55] my mom she was like

[00:32:57] guys hit it a little too hard

[00:32:59] you know that it's all really

[00:33:01] bad and I think in a way

[00:33:03] it's like Brett you mentioned

[00:33:05] you know your mom's friend who sold Mary Kay

[00:33:07] and I think a lot of people

[00:33:09] you know my mom's

[00:33:11] in my mom's generation they had that experience

[00:33:13] of people being in multi-level

[00:33:15] marketing companies

[00:33:17] that didn't quite require

[00:33:19] that same sort of

[00:33:21] splicing off of your relationships

[00:33:23] to create this you know this dual

[00:33:25] relationship thing like it could be

[00:33:27] a lot more casual whereas

[00:33:29] the current day MLM

[00:33:31] scene seems to

[00:33:33] really demand this kind of

[00:33:35] aggressive marketing

[00:33:37] that maybe wasn't exactly present

[00:33:39] back in the day with you know the

[00:33:41] early heyday of MLM

[00:33:43] there's definitely something different now

[00:33:45] that is a lot

[00:33:47] more yeah

[00:33:49] worrisome and aggressive and icky

[00:33:51] yeah I mean

[00:33:53] the early ones especially like you think about

[00:33:55] like there's threads of

[00:33:57] things that are really positive

[00:33:59] intent in them like

[00:34:01] Avon is like kind of like you know one of

[00:34:03] the OG MLMs

[00:34:05] with the product anyway

[00:34:07] at that whole

[00:34:09] the Avon story is

[00:34:11] around women who wanted to be able

[00:34:13] to you know have some

[00:34:15] income of their own like not

[00:34:17] through a man and

[00:34:19] giving them something to do

[00:34:21] with their time other than just

[00:34:23] keeping the home right so

[00:34:25] I mean there are pieces

[00:34:27] of that that do make

[00:34:29] sense and feel well intentioned and they

[00:34:31] have unfortunately largely

[00:34:33] now been warped into

[00:34:35] this

[00:34:37] whole MLM industry

[00:34:39] so at the time

[00:34:41] that this happened

[00:34:43] and mind you like

[00:34:45] just to contextualize this for our

[00:34:47] listeners I don't think

[00:34:49] we're trying to say that

[00:34:51] this story represents this

[00:34:53] cataclysmic traumatic

[00:34:55] thing that happened to you like it's a

[00:34:57] distasteful story and it's a drag

[00:34:59] but we're not trying to sell it I was like wow

[00:35:01] this changed Brits life

[00:35:03] there are things that change Brits life

[00:35:05] but they come with the term

[00:35:07] Taylor's version at the end of

[00:35:09] those are the things that change Brits life

[00:35:11] yes

[00:35:13] but

[00:35:15] the thing that hits me about this story

[00:35:17] and the reason why it's always kind of lived

[00:35:19] rent free in my head was because

[00:35:21] you know here was somebody

[00:35:23] who either

[00:35:25] knowingly or not

[00:35:27] was trading on

[00:35:29] a real problem that

[00:35:31] you had like I mean kind of this anxiety

[00:35:33] and

[00:35:35] you know struggle that they

[00:35:37] had around eating and body image and stuff

[00:35:39] is it your sense that

[00:35:41] he had

[00:35:43] I mean he obviously knew about that struggle because

[00:35:45] he used it

[00:35:47] do you have in any sense of whether

[00:35:49] he appreciated that as like the serious

[00:35:51] problem that it was

[00:35:53] I mean

[00:35:55] outside of that conversation

[00:35:57] I would have thought yes

[00:35:59] and that's part of why this

[00:36:01] like the whole thing was so

[00:36:03] just like

[00:36:05] weird in my head and why it continues

[00:36:07] to feel weird thinking about it because

[00:36:09] it was this thing of like

[00:36:11] if we took this

[00:36:13] part out of the equation

[00:36:15] I would never have gotten the impression

[00:36:17] that this would be something

[00:36:19] that you would take so like lightly

[00:36:21] in that way

[00:36:23] and so I don't know

[00:36:25] it's like

[00:36:27] I mean I know there are

[00:36:29] like brainwashing has

[00:36:31] you know there's a lot of different

[00:36:33] connotations and meaning that go along with that

[00:36:35] but that was like kind of the vibe that I got

[00:36:37] of it of like oh like

[00:36:39] in some

[00:36:41] this

[00:36:43] advocate who you're up line

[00:36:45] whoever is having you do this

[00:36:47] has like removed the piece of

[00:36:49] you that or like that piece

[00:36:51] of information in this

[00:36:53] context specifically because I feel like

[00:36:55] if we had been not talking about that and it was

[00:36:57] like you know oh we're hanging out

[00:36:59] at home having a conversation about something else

[00:37:01] and everything like I don't

[00:37:03] think that that would have been

[00:37:05] how like that he would have viewed that as

[00:37:07] a sales pitch until

[00:37:09] MLM came

[00:37:11] into his life

[00:37:13] and I'm like

[00:37:15] I'm just really grateful for

[00:37:17] the fact that the

[00:37:19] place that I was in at that time

[00:37:21] was a place where I was just

[00:37:23] like no I'm not doing

[00:37:25] that like

[00:37:27] right like I'm like

[00:37:29] man if that conversation

[00:37:31] had happened about a

[00:37:33] year and a half earlier

[00:37:35] that would have been a problem for me

[00:37:37] like because I would have said yes

[00:37:39] and it would have then very

[00:37:41] quickly become

[00:37:43] this really bad

[00:37:45] cyclical thing

[00:37:47] of this person whose

[00:37:49] goal is to sell

[00:37:51] as much as they can and keep people

[00:37:53] coming back for more

[00:37:55] selling to a person who's

[00:37:57] you know

[00:37:59] at that point like functionally a like behavioral

[00:38:01] addiction

[00:38:03] needs to be fed

[00:38:05] no pun intended

[00:38:07] you know what I mean like

[00:38:09] that just I just can see

[00:38:11] that being disastrous

[00:38:13] had I been in a different

[00:38:15] place in my life

[00:38:17] absolutely absolutely

[00:38:19] yeah well and I mean

[00:38:21] you and I talk about this a lot

[00:38:23] like we talk about the

[00:38:25] the connection between

[00:38:27] addiction patterns

[00:38:29] and disordered eating and

[00:38:31] I mean trauma recovery generally

[00:38:33] I mean something that you know that I'm really passionate about

[00:38:35] is the conceptualization

[00:38:37] of trauma recovery as

[00:38:39] I'm broadly analogous

[00:38:41] to addiction recovery

[00:38:43] because I think that trauma recovery

[00:38:45] much like addiction recovery is the kind of thing

[00:38:47] we got to wake up and choose it every day

[00:38:49] and got to be aware of our risk factors

[00:38:51] and you know think about

[00:38:53] it as a one day at a time recovery

[00:38:55] much like addiction recovery

[00:38:57] but I mean you and I have talked a lot

[00:38:59] about how eating disordered recovery

[00:39:01] is very similar

[00:39:03] and that you got to kind of work your

[00:39:05] eating disorder recovery one day at a time

[00:39:07] and wake up every day and choose it

[00:39:09] and be aware of your risk factors, be aware of

[00:39:11] kind of a self-deception

[00:39:13] that goes along

[00:39:15] like you've talked a lot about eating

[00:39:17] like I talk about trauma brain, you talk about eating disorder brain

[00:39:19] you know that

[00:39:21] that really kind of gets in your head

[00:39:23] and lies to you about you know like

[00:39:25] maybe not eating today is the solution

[00:39:27] to this broad emotional problem

[00:39:29] that we're having

[00:39:31] but that I think you bring up a really interesting point

[00:39:33] that there are

[00:39:35] like in this case we're talking about MLMs

[00:39:37] we can broaden the conversation to self-help

[00:39:39] generally

[00:39:41] like there are our self-help

[00:39:43] resources

[00:39:45] I'll put that in quotes

[00:39:47] that will happily step in and trade on

[00:39:49] our addictive patterns

[00:39:51] right?

[00:39:53] like we know that broadly what drives addictions

[00:39:55] are you know anxiety

[00:39:57] and what do self-help resources try to do

[00:39:59] they try to step in and assuage

[00:40:01] your anxiety? No we've got the answer

[00:40:03] we've got the answer for why your life isn't working

[00:40:05] we've got the answer for why you can't lose weight

[00:40:07] we've got the answer for why you know whatever

[00:40:09] and it's

[00:40:11] particularly scummy I think to

[00:40:13] trade on addictive patterns

[00:40:15] to exploit addictive

[00:40:17] patterns. So one of the reasons why I struggle

[00:40:19] we're gonna

[00:40:21] get off the topic for once

[00:40:23] we're gonna go

[00:40:25] straight guys. No it's one of the reasons why

[00:40:27] I struggle with models

[00:40:29] of psychotherapy

[00:40:31] that are all about keep coming back

[00:40:33] for years right?

[00:40:35] like I know that there are problems with short-term

[00:40:37] models

[00:40:39] of psychotherapy and I have

[00:40:41] some sympathy toward the argument that yeah

[00:40:43] like complex human problems are maybe not meant

[00:40:45] to be worked through in 12 sessions or less

[00:40:47] of CBT like I get that part

[00:40:49] that said I struggle

[00:40:51] with you know that there are some

[00:40:53] therapists on twitter.com

[00:40:55] who shall remain nameless

[00:40:57] they've already been named

[00:40:59] in this podcast

[00:41:01] well no you gotta

[00:41:03] keep them coming back for years man

[00:41:05] and again that speaks

[00:41:07] to a kind of a dependency

[00:41:09] in my mind like it's

[00:41:11] don't get me wrong like I don't think there's anything wrong with working with a therapist for years but when you make that your model

[00:41:15] of like you gotta keep

[00:41:17] coming back and you gotta

[00:41:19] I don't know like I get

[00:41:21] queasy about it

[00:41:23] it's entirely different I think when somebody

[00:41:25] is choosing to

[00:41:27] for like an ongoing benefit

[00:41:29] versus that thing

[00:41:31] where they're yeah like fostering a dependency

[00:41:33] kind of thing right because

[00:41:35] it's one thing if you're like oh yeah

[00:41:37] like I mean I do a lot of long-term

[00:41:39] work with clients and I have

[00:41:41] several clients who I've been working with for years

[00:41:43] and Glenn I know that's true for you too like

[00:41:45] so it's like not inherently

[00:41:47] bad but

[00:41:49] it's easy to then

[00:41:51] well easy for certain

[00:41:53] types of

[00:41:55] therapists to capitalize on that

[00:41:57] and turn that into a thing of

[00:41:59] yes you need this to stay

[00:42:01] you know moving through

[00:42:03] whatever your problem is

[00:42:05] basically yeah

[00:42:07] I was thinking about this in reference to

[00:42:09] self-help right like I was thinking

[00:42:11] about like the kinds

[00:42:13] of seminars that the large group

[00:42:15] awareness trainings that Tony Robbins does

[00:42:17] sadly Jane Tony Robbins

[00:42:19] did not contact me about being on his podcast this week

[00:42:21] sorry buddy I know

[00:42:23] I know

[00:42:25] so sad

[00:42:27] now I can that each seminar

[00:42:29] is advertised

[00:42:31] as well this is the one

[00:42:33] this is the one like like this is the ultimate

[00:42:35] one which is weird because

[00:42:37] if you hit the ultimate one you'd think that okay I

[00:42:39] did the one I don't own

[00:42:41] have to do anymore right

[00:42:43] but it's always followed up I like well no

[00:42:45] no this is the one this is one that fills in the

[00:42:47] gaps from the one

[00:42:49] right well that's I was going to say it's

[00:42:51] an interesting kind of paradox with

[00:42:53] self-help because one of the things

[00:42:55] that self-help does a lot in

[00:42:57] marketing itself is

[00:42:59] they criticize traditional therapy

[00:43:01] and psychotherapy as being like oh you're

[00:43:03] gonna have to just keep doing this

[00:43:05] endlessly forever and yet of course

[00:43:07] the whole business model

[00:43:09] of self-help is to pull people in

[00:43:11] and then like you're saying Glenn

[00:43:13] they get you to keep buying the next one

[00:43:15] and the next one and the next one

[00:43:17] and also similar to

[00:43:19] I think you know when you talk to a lot

[00:43:21] of cult survivors

[00:43:23] a lot of them talk about having

[00:43:25] done the cult hopping thing where they went

[00:43:27] from one group to another group and another group

[00:43:29] and again I think it's this idea

[00:43:31] of trading on maybe some

[00:43:33] addictive tendency

[00:43:35] and you know building that kind of dependency

[00:43:37] in people as a means

[00:43:39] as a business model

[00:43:41] well and I've talked about that a lot

[00:43:43] with people with MLM stuff

[00:43:45] is that like I think

[00:43:47] that's kind of what's at the

[00:43:49] crux of it is that

[00:43:51] they're not actually selling

[00:43:53] the product that it

[00:43:55] seems like they're selling like they are in the literal

[00:43:57] sense obviously but like at its core

[00:43:59] most of those MLMs

[00:44:01] what they are actually selling to you is an idea

[00:44:03] they're selling to you the

[00:44:05] idea that you can be happy with this

[00:44:07] thing right like and

[00:44:09] that their thing is the way that will get you

[00:44:11] to that happiness that you want

[00:44:13] whether it's this

[00:44:15] weight loss substance

[00:44:17] you know like whatever or if it's

[00:44:19] the oh you know join

[00:44:21] us and you can have financial

[00:44:23] freedom they love

[00:44:25] that term financial freedom it's like a

[00:44:27] it's like a tick for me at this point

[00:44:29] I hear that phrase and I'm immediately

[00:44:31] like what are we doing

[00:44:33] but it's that like piece where

[00:44:35] it's not even about the thing

[00:44:37] it's about how the thing is going to

[00:44:39] make you feel and change your life

[00:44:41] and then you need to keep going and going

[00:44:43] and going yeah well they're

[00:44:45] selling a lifestyle

[00:44:47] and an image and I think

[00:44:49] in a way that's why

[00:44:51] then it becomes okay for people

[00:44:53] to leverage all

[00:44:55] of the different parts of their life including

[00:44:57] their relationship in

[00:44:59] service of their success in this

[00:45:01] MLM venture

[00:45:03] because it's not just

[00:45:05] about the thing it's not just about the business

[00:45:07] it's about their entire life so everything

[00:45:09] becomes fair game and I think

[00:45:11] that's where people kind of lose themselves

[00:45:13] in it and forget about you know things

[00:45:15] like I don't know common courtesy

[00:45:17] and human decency and how

[00:45:19] they deal with people

[00:45:21] you can learn more about

[00:45:30] seek safely's mission and values

[00:45:32] or get involved yourself

[00:45:34] at seeksafely.org

[00:45:36] you can follow and connect with

[00:45:38] seek safely on Instagram

[00:45:40] Twitter and Facebook

[00:45:42] you can follow me Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle

[00:45:44] for psychology

[00:45:46] trauma and advocacy content

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[00:45:52] seek safely