Part 2: “Is This A Cult?” – Anne Peterson's New Memoir about Her Time with Landmark Education & the Infamous Werner Erhard

[00:00:00] At Seek Safely, it's our mission to empower seekers to have a safe and meaningful self-improvement journey. Why do we care? Seeking to be your best self is an amazing, beautiful human impulse that has led us to create art, invent technology, tell amazing stories, and reach the moon.

[00:00:19] But we saw the dark side of self-help in 2009 when a recklessly run self-improvement retreat led to the death of three people, including my sister, Kirby Brown.

[00:00:30] We want people to seek to dream their big dreams and chase their beautiful goals, but we want to make sure they're safe along the way. This podcast is about education and empowerment and getting real about the promises and problems of self-help.

[00:00:46] We talk with people who understand and care about the self-help industry and everyone it touches. I'm Jean Brown. I'm Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle. And this is the Seek Safely podcast. And it is interesting.

[00:01:06] We've seen this so much in self-help in many ways where there's always this tension where, on the one hand, a lot of these gurus or groups will sort of poo poo when somebody says to them,

[00:01:22] Well, what research is this based in or what academic credential do you have that gives you the authority to speak about this or to guide people in this way? And they'll go, well, they'll give reasons why that kind of credential is not actually valid.

[00:01:40] I don't know how to answer that question. And why, you know... So the first program, I went and... Mary invited me down to do a program that was being hosted by the business school at Texas A&M. In the summer it was a...

[00:01:52] And Mike, it was like the first or second time they were test piloting this course. And she invited me to come do it and then give them an assessment about could they find a way to do it publicly and raise money, blah, blah, blah.

[00:02:03] And Marty, the dean of that public school or that school is introducing Mike Jensen who is a giant in academics. Like a giant. I didn't know this. I didn't know him from Adam, but he's a giant. We're in this room at Texas A&M and da, da, da.

[00:02:17] And she's going on and she's clear she has big admiration and adoration for Mike. And then Werner kind of steps in from the side and he goes, And I'm the guy with no credentials whatsoever. The guy is one of the best of the best.

[00:02:33] Like he is a performer. Rick Ross said to me, he believes him to be the shrewdest of all these types he's ever encountered. And I would second that. I get it. He's he's adept.

[00:02:46] He's 88 years old now, you know, and he's been doing this since his, you know what 20, I mean, he started out selling encyclopedias and children's books and done that while I started out selling cars. Actually started started in a meat.

[00:02:58] He used to tell us about throwing the meat over his shoulder and Philadelphia. But, you know, he was a kind of consummate salesman. And he sells authenticity. He sells integrity. He sells responsibility. He sells accountability. That's why what comes next was so hard to swallow. Yeah.

[00:03:22] Okay, so why don't you get into that part of the story? Well, so I started getting called many of his as I'm hosting these courses, I kind of figure out if I can take care of his team, they can take care of.

[00:03:36] You know, and so I worked really hard to take care of his team and they were always kind of a mess, you know, and they, they didn't have breaks.

[00:03:43] They didn't have food like our team would like make big plates of food for them and, you know, and I would always house the teams on the club floor because it had constant food service. There was a whole thing.

[00:03:53] My theory to great events keep people well fed and watered and arrested as well. So you want to be at my events. They're great. Jean's been there. So exactly. Yeah, actually on that club floor. It was that club floor and so this team was very integrated.

[00:04:10] We worked very hard to take care of them and to love on them and we invited them when our team had anything they were always invited like so we were quite close and I started getting calls and 2018 started with a partner of one of the team who one of his staff who had been on my team and basically asking me.

[00:04:31] Say she was this person was sort of at their wit's end because their partner who was a winner staff was being abused.

[00:04:39] And she was being very circumspect and kind of, you know, because we're all like trained like you don't tell you don't talk, you know, you know, whatever, like you're not even supposed to use his name. You call him the customer and all this stuff. The customer. Yeah.

[00:04:55] The customer. One of the most famous gurus in the world. That was like one of the things I was because it was weird. I couldn't interact with the hotel that way they were like and look, they're useless.

[00:05:04] It's not like they don't host heads of states and I remember this one was Carlton and he was like, yeah, I can handle it. I had Madonna as a guest. You know, you hear about this stuff. So that's why I hosted in those kind of places.

[00:05:17] They were used to quirky requests. But anyway, so I was like, what are you? Are you saying that he physically? I mean, I know he's verbally harsh with people and because I had seen that a lot and didn't approve of it and didn't like it.

[00:05:33] And if people asked me should they become part of the staff? I would say no, you know, I wouldn't do that. Like now looking back, I think there was a part of me that knew. You know how when you kind of know but you can't know.

[00:05:47] I had the same experience when I kicked my husband out and then of course found out he was cheating on me being up on my son and doing drugs.

[00:05:55] Well, no wonder I was like such a mess and couldn't like, you know, remember my birthday because I was sort of not I was working very hard for not know things. Right? This is my first. Yes, my husband now does not do any of that. Gotcha. He's lovely.

[00:06:15] I did. Everybody go on. So when this person comes to me and starts saying this, it kind of fit with some things that I need an experience. So I'm like, wait, are you telling me he actually physically harms people? And she wouldn't exactly, you know, yeah.

[00:06:32] Oh, well, and I said, well look, you know, and I gave her the best advice I had, you know, I'm like, look, if that's happening, like, you got to call the police, you know, you got to get to safety. But you know, those if that's it.

[00:06:46] And then this person was also telling me about this kind of whole she what she was asking my advice about whether or not it was normal for a contractor to be demanded to pay for pay refunds to refund part of their pay.

[00:07:02] And was that actually a legitimate practice? So I was very startled. I was like, what?

[00:07:09] And I had heard some things that then kind of made sense, you know, like different, you know, you owe me or you're so incompetent, you owe me, blah, blah, you know, like things like this. And so I was like, what? And she's coming to me for help.

[00:07:22] And so I said, yeah, this idea of the pay refund because as you're saying it is not normal. I did. No, no, that's not normal. That's not a thing that I'm aware of. Right.

[00:07:34] So as you described it in the book, it would be basically like any time they according to Warner messed something up or did something wrong, he would demand that they refund him part of their pay. Part of their pay. Yeah. Yeah, no, not normal.

[00:07:50] This person I counseled I said, go find an employment attorney in the country that you're in like don't like, I don't think that sounds right. Like, but go talk to somebody and make sure they're not in the network, meaning not in the Lamar network.

[00:08:06] That was my first that was the first person several people come to me in the ensuing couple of years, right. And but that was the beginning of like, I got to get out of this like, and I was already.

[00:08:21] I was clear at this point, we were not going to get this into academia that this was more about making money and legitimizing Warner. Mike was out of it by this point, you know, so I was kind of like done anyway, but I was very financially entangled.

[00:08:38] That that thing of demanding a portion of payment back if he felt that the person had performed incompetently was that kind of couched in the philosophy of the org like this accountability integrity thing, like, like, you didn't live up to your word therefore.

[00:08:56] I think I can do that.

[00:08:57] You know, again, the people that talked, you know, that came to me with these kind of questions and asked they were trying, you know, to not initially, you know, try not to divulge too much later, I would come to, you know, get in an open conversation where I could ask questions and was definitely it was much more about incompetence and I would later find out that a similar practice was carried on in Lamar, which was stunning to me, which I mean,

[00:09:25] really stunning that they did that in the United States and that they could do that they could dock somebody's pay 5%, 10% and that kind of thing like you're so bad at your job that you should be paying me to do your job.

[00:09:37] That's kind of how it was and there were, as it has been told to me, you know, there's a whole thing about impeccability and accuracy and that's where the integrity is integrity is about workability. That's a whole other aspect of the definition of integrity. Integrity is about workability.

[00:09:51] If something doesn't work, it doesn't have integrity and that's another way they kind of moved away from the values and morals kind of definition of understanding of integrity. It's like when my phone is working the way it's designed to be working, it has full integrity.

[00:10:06] Anything less than that is a diminution of integrity and it will work less and work less until it doesn't work at all.

[00:10:13] Well, the reason why I ask is because we've seen over and over again that when a guru or an org wants to do something that would be kind of on its face, unethical or immoral, they very frequently turn to this philosophy that they have kind of indoctrinated everybody in

[00:10:33] and say, you know, look, if you all believe in what I've been teaching, then you must see that clearly like I'm the source of this and I wouldn't violate the teaching. Right? So this must be consistent with what come on.

[00:10:44] Like, you know, you're not ontologically being the person that I expected you to be. You promised to be like you haven't done this job. That's definitely in the background. I think it was, Warner's thing was all couched in training.

[00:10:56] I mean, he told us that he showed us this full metal jacket video of a drill sergeant. Oh, the jelly dough. I actually got another video that's even more like him.

[00:11:06] I'm like, I was surprised he didn't show us this one when I was looking for it with a sergeant just walking around and screaming like, I'm going to make you the best and it's going to be the hardest thing you've ever seen and na na na na na.

[00:11:17] And you're going to weep and you're going to cry and you're going to da da da da, but I'm doing this for you. I mean, it's very classic domestic abuser, right? I'm going to beat the best out of you. I'm going to beat the best out of you.

[00:11:30] Oh, it's classic domestic abuser. It's famously James Arthur Ray leading the Sedona participants into the sweat lodge, right? Like this will be the hardest thing you're going to feel like you're going to die, but you're not going to die. Yeah. You're going to come through.

[00:11:46] He's like, I'm not consensin' to you. And I'm doing this for you. I'm doing this for you. For you to be the best you can be. You know, I think my suspicion is in those deep inner circles and where the abuse happens.

[00:12:04] Because to my knowledge, there's no reason to think it's not happening now right now. He still has staff. He still has people around him. But it was kind of the pretense to a degree of the integrity, which kind of drifts away.

[00:12:20] But at that point, by the time you get there, you don't need anybody enforcing that on you. It's my understanding. There's a group of his ex-staffers that are trying very hard to get the truth told.

[00:12:36] And it started out, they were trying very hard to just make it stop. And then they were trying very hard to just get some basic degree of restitution. Give me the money that you took from me.

[00:12:48] You know, when I finally left and they kept it apparently or allegedly how there's files of all your pay refunds. And there was a point at which there would be people who owed him more money than he owed them. So I don't know what there is half slavery.

[00:13:06] You know, slavery is like when you work for free, but when you're paying somebody to do their work, what's that? Yeah. By the way, Werner's not the only place I saw similar stuff like that. You know, the yoga man had a similar setup. Yeah.

[00:13:22] I mean, just in general, like the idea of odd pay structures or excessive volunteerism or being paid in further trainings or experiences like that is just all over self-help and the whole MLM world as well. Right.

[00:13:43] Like the idea of, you know, you're making money, but then when you look at it, you're not actually really making money like that is so.

[00:13:49] Or you're making like in the case of I share in the book of a girl who's she's working as an executive assistant in San Francisco for Joan Rosenberg. And she's making on average 12 dollars an hour. Right. And Joan Rosenberg is Werner's sister.

[00:14:09] And she, since Landmark's inception, she's been the head of what's called the Center's Division, which is the primary division of Landmark that hosts all its core programs. Right. Yeah. It's a good secure area.

[00:14:24] So yeah, as you describe in the book, you know, you start hearing about these things with Werner and his staff. They just sound like this, this like lost little group of people that are just right around him like all the time.

[00:14:40] Like every time you do one of these events. Yeah. It's wild. It's very interesting.

[00:14:46] I called them the kids because that's just was my kind of love name for them because there was always there was never less than six, but six to eight, sometimes nine of his entourage that would be on the programs.

[00:14:59] And then we were trying to take care of them. So we call them the kids. They were older than me. Like I'm like, but you know, okay, we're going to make sure they're fed and watered and loved. They were so freaked out. Yeah. You know.

[00:15:15] Yeah, it's just a, it's a very, it's pretty wacky.

[00:15:19] And as, as you're describing, you know, there's a whole story to be told there that is the story of other people that we hope will come out and emerge as well when those people are prepared to talk about it.

[00:15:32] But you also kind of described then as you learn about these things with Werner's staff in particular, you do start seeing how that was actually part of the whole landmark organization.

[00:15:47] It wasn't just and you could see that, you know, Werner had been sort of sidelined from landmark, but he was still very much the source of all of it. Right.

[00:16:00] So I've come to find out as I was working in the being, in the being a leader project and I was laisoning between landmark landmark org structures and Werner org structures that there was virtually no distance.

[00:16:14] So, and that, and I had known before the being a leader project, a very good friend of mine worked for one of the, they're called technical affiliates or their licensees they have been given license by landmark to use aspects of the

[00:16:29] technology in business, in business to business consulting. And a good friend of mine worked for one of the large affiliates and licensees. And I remember this was early like this was, this was had to been early 2000s or something. So I was living here in Texas. Yeah.

[00:16:46] So having, you know, 2006 2007 somewhere like in there. And she's like, Oh my God, you won't believe who was at the technical conference, right? Because they're required to go to these trainings every year to get updated and blah, blah, blah. And Werner was there. I'm like, what? The Werner?

[00:17:00] What? You know, like, and then, then there was creep from there. And then you would hear about him being at the landmark forum leader forwards, working with the forum leaders who are the primary, you know, program leader. The forum is the core program ever.

[00:17:15] You can't do anything in landmark without coming through the forum. That's, that's the way and that's where the core methodology is laid out and everything builds on that.

[00:17:24] And so, you know, those leaders which I've always found interesting, there's always been between like 36 and 45 all what's landmark been in existence now 30 some years. They've never grown that body. It's always been the same, which that's an interesting thing. I'm like, hmm.

[00:17:42] So anyway, but yeah, he would show up there and huge. So and then around 2015 we started the being a leader thing in 2012, but it was around 2015.

[00:17:53] You know, there was conversation about he had observed a forum and he was going to go back and work with the R&D team and they were screwing a bunch of stuff up and they were going to like redo the form.

[00:18:03] They were always redoing the forum and it doesn't play change, but they're always redoing it. So he was them more involved. And then I did hear come 2020 in the pandemic and landmark gets in big trouble that Warner was actually involved in the daily operations.

[00:18:20] We see this with various figures, right? Like we see this with, you know, gurus who they have. I mean, every few years they, you know, we hear a guru who has kind of a come up and they get kind of canceled, right?

[00:18:35] Like their allegations of and they're always very similar allegations. Frankly, you know, either they've been abusive toward their staff or inappropriate with participants or clients. Yeah, participants are like whatever it is.

[00:18:51] But we see this again and again where the strategy is where they'll okay, they'll back off for a minute and they'll kind of, you know, disclaim public association with the organization or whatever.

[00:19:03] But then slowly hear like, oh man, like they showed up and they showed up at a forum. They were really welcome, right? Like the participants loved seeing them. And this is why I've never really, I mean, canceled culture.

[00:19:16] I don't know, like we should all have be cancelled as some of these gurus and some of these entertainers, right? Like who can get canceled and then a couple years later come back and we're gonna grab you.

[00:19:29] Well, it's funny. Somebody that I'm working with in the release of this book and whatnot. And you know, look, and I'm doing this, I've been waiting, there's various illegal actions that are happening. I've been waiting for three years for the truth to get told.

[00:19:42] And to some ways it's kind of a boring story. Like he said like, oh gosh, there's another guy that abuses, you know, old bike guy that abuses power. You know, but for me the problem here is a this is somebody who's very work is about not that right?

[00:19:59] Who's very the hypocrisy is particularly deep. And then the culpability of landmark as an organization and whatnot to cover it up to hot to provide cover. I mean, I've come to see landmark in many ways as as Warner's beard.

[00:20:15] You know, he's getting ongoing to my knowledge and certainly the last financial statements I saw he's still getting a significant amount of income from landmark.

[00:20:24] You know, he's definitely getting help as they've tried to shut down this group of staff, staffers that are trying to just honestly it started out just get made whole in the most bearest minimum of humane ways.

[00:20:38] And not only did they deny that but they've continued to retraumatize them calling them liars telling them, you know, you're they're just employees that had bad experiences and they're trying to get even and, you know, all this kind of stuff.

[00:20:51] And so that and then landmark participating in that and it's all a meshed it's all a meshed but you know and then for me to find out this what really killed it and I was like this story has to come out and if I it's dangerous for me but if I have to be the one to tell it.

[00:21:07] I'm going to tell it because one I feel complicit.

[00:21:10] I feel like given my role and you know I'm like wait, I feel like if I know look if I know my neighbor is abusing his wife or vice versa the wife's abusing her husband and I know it and and I don't do anything.

[00:21:27] I, for me I feel complicit right so.

[00:21:31] But also there's hundreds of employees at landmark and now you know the stock hold that are came out about a year ago that landmarks, you know who's struggling for its survival is going to give $4 million to a Werner Center for leadership development at Cal State University.

[00:21:49] And I was like what you know that like what you're having your employees take pay cuts you're struggling for your very survival your ESOP which people's retirements are counting on is at risk, you know, I mean because if they go out of business it goes you know it doesn't stick around.

[00:22:08] Not invested in my tell fidelity, you know my own stock I mean I got the last of it out but you know I lost about 10 grand so it just. No consequences.

[00:22:20] Yes, exactly like I think this is one of these things about so many of these groups and again where it crosses that that line into cultiness is that the layers that are put on everybody. Like the layers that are placed to protect itself are so many.

[00:22:39] Because and we talked about this a little bit why it's so hard to get out is because you have so many pieces of your life that are connected.

[00:22:47] To the organization that even when you start to see things you start to question things extracting yourself means tearing out like all of these strings that you have you know connecting your life to this organization. And it's financial it's emotional it's community and friends and relationships.

[00:23:06] There's lots of staff walking around out there that left a failure. And I want to say them like if any of them are listening it was not you, you did not fail. You're in an organization that is designed for failure that was exploitive.

[00:23:25] If you felt like you were abused it's because you were, you know, and that's the other reason why I'm like speaking up because I over the years this actually been for a lot of years but I've had a lot of staff members and program leaders that had bad experiences mostly the breakup is bad.

[00:23:43] Like it's a bad. Most people leave landmark not because they want to even I even though I resigned.

[00:23:49] If if all the things they did in 2020 hadn't happened you know I find out this stuff about Warner I find out you know that landmark is not not going to stand up to them but they're going to actually keep sending him employees even though they know they're being abused.

[00:24:04] And they're going to cover for him and and and you know and they're going to threaten me if I try if I tried that they send me a threatening letter because I use.

[00:24:15] I've offered a free webinar that sounded like what a webinar they were offering I didn't even know they were offering it you know like it was it was I was kicked out in a way, even with all this stuff.

[00:24:28] And then that's what had me reexamine well there's lots of staff men ex staff and program leaders that are out there.

[00:24:34] That are like, still morning that they were kicked out or that they were failed so they were so bad they could not transform the world they no longer allowed to be world transformers because they couldn't make those targets.

[00:24:49] Or they, you know, that's the other thing like I want people to be able to step up and start telling their stories and start getting help there are a lot of people have been traumatized particularly the staff in the staff realm.

[00:25:06] Well and when we talk about complex trauma as trauma that happens over time and in the context of relationships and as functionally inescapable.

[00:25:17] And it occurs to me that that many of the staff relationships with with Werner by definition like they can hit all three of them right when an organization or even an inner circle within an organization becomes like your support network right.

[00:25:36] It's functionally inescapable your income is tied up in it right like it's not as easy as just saying okay I've out again it's it's trauma that's perpetrated over time because you took gosh you just said it right.

[00:25:50] Some of these staff members wind up you know serving for decades. So it happens over time it's it's it's entwined in our relationships it's functionally inescapable it's a recipe for complex trauma.

[00:26:03] But what also occurs to me about that is because the organization this is one of the reasons why the beginning of our show I was like well let's let's lay out a little bit of what landmarks philosophy is because it's all about you're not a victim.

[00:26:15] Like it's all about you know you it's on you to have accountability and and and. And who are you being. So the idea of that's a big one that's a big way responsible.

[00:26:28] Who are you being to that bus ran you over right you know I wouldn't be surprised you know I never heard this directly or whatnot but I would not be surprised to you know if you know who your being as a staff member is such that I have to scream at you and call you names who you're being as a staff member is so incompetent that you should be paying me for help.

[00:26:50] I'm having to train your ass who you are being like yeah. So if I as as a trauma expert which I dear listeners and Peterson calls me in her book an expert on complex trauma so thank you for that.

[00:27:06] That's when I was really sold on the book it's at the very end. You got a really good. Correct me if I got anything incorrect or you know what that. Oh no you got that very correct that leave that part in.

[00:27:18] Got the yeah I got to hang out with Glenn Doyle and expert in trauma.

[00:27:22] No I mean if I as a as a trauma guy told any of these these staff members hey you know you by definition like like you might meet the criteria for complex trauma depending on how indoctrinated they were they might come back and me and say look I'm not a victim like like this is a function of who ontologically this is a.

[00:27:42] Yeah like who am I being like like I and I would kind of say what it was. It would say to you I was just that. And I actually asked someone one time one of the.

[00:27:54] Where the X staff and I said you know we saw that video about you know he showed us that video and we saw you know we any of us that worked in the inner thing saw him yelling at them and you know literally what I said I would have called it I did call it a hostile work environment like he created a really hostile work environment.

[00:28:12] And they're like but we were always told they chose that that was our that was the justification they chose that but they chose and I asked one time I said is that actually in your contract like that you can be screamed at and that you know like.

[00:28:26] And it was a lawyer friend of mine that said and you can't actually choose abuse that's not a thing. And that was news to me.

[00:28:37] And I'm a smart cookie who's had a rough you know upbringing you know I've had a rough upbringing and survived a lot and but I didn't really have it that you can't choose to be verbally assaulted as a training method.

[00:28:53] And look a seminar company and you know whatever he wants to call himself currently not a philosopher despite what he may think in human potential is not training people to be the Marine seals.

[00:29:07] You know when you're training people in the military you do have to train people to set aside their emotional reactions to set aside their fear or flight response to have you know people who are in life and death situations.

[00:29:22] He foments life and death situations as a matter of human potential. And I don't think he's alone in that I think that that's think that's been a part of the whole self help human potential. Yandra you know like.

[00:29:39] Well yeah I think a lot of times that image of the work is so important. What we're doing here is so important that we can excuse all these other things that are maybe make us a little bit uncomfortable because the work is the important thing I mean.

[00:29:55] You kind of like hinted this in your book as well a little bit.

[00:30:00] It's not just in the self help world that we see that I think we see that in like politics a lot for example especially these days you know the larger purpose is always held up so high above things that when you look at it you go no this is wrong like this is wrong.

[00:30:17] No it was a big breakthrough for me when when you know people and it was numerous people it wasn't just one so Warner crowd if you're out there thinking of attacking the one knock it off.

[00:30:30] It's many and started telling me you know because then they started to you know I'm kind of known because I'll listen I'll hear all like empathize what you know and and what I hope was you know the best advice I knew how but.

[00:30:47] Talk to experts talk to a therapist go to the police you know that kind of thing and but then I literally walked my neighborhood for probably a good six months.

[00:30:57] That's how I work off my stress and anxiety I walk me my dog zero we would walk the neighborhood and talk and crying because what I was crying about is when this comes out the work will be destroyed.

[00:31:10] That's what I was upset about like it and it took me months to work through this like oh my and now I'm stuck because I know too like what so do I let people keep being abused because the work depends on it.

[00:31:25] You know and in the landmark world like sitting around in the assisting rooms people talk openly about the work is amazing the organization is terrible.

[00:31:36] It's you know it's not professional it's you know they don't exactly use exploitive but pretty close you know it's it's nothing I'm saying there is new to anybody who's been a part of the station but we all.

[00:31:50] It didn't matter it's exactly what you said Jean because if we if we didn't put up with that if we didn't.

[00:31:57] If we said something if we go to a lawyer you know if I there's lots of employment junk that is you know I said Joan Rosenberg docked people's pay that can't be legal.

[00:32:10] Somebody did come to me that was was told by an employment lawyer they had a very good case but if they took it and won it they would probably put landmark out of business and the person said it's not worth it because I gotta save the work.

[00:32:23] And that's why these guys have also you know hundreds of people have been you know likely in these terrible situations with Warner but if they tell.

[00:32:35] What happened like what happens to the work that is so that and there was a moment when I was walking walking and crying and you know at this point I'm like starting to read and listen and la la la and I'm talking to a.

[00:32:49] You know I have a therapist a spiritual teacher and a coach and a lot of really. And I all of a sudden I had this realization that whoa wait if we actually stood for real integrity maybe the work would be set free.

[00:33:03] Like if we actually really walked the talk. And said hey that doesn't work. Talking people's pay physically verbally emotionally harming people claiming to be the only answer I mean we can go up and down the scale of cold.

[00:33:21] You know plenty of use of exploitative behavior doesn't work and if we call it out maybe maybe the ideas could be free and we could be openly discussed maybe maybe we could start to actually build a better self help world. Maybe the work could save the organization.

[00:33:45] Exactly and that's my challenge to landmark at the end I'm like look let the guy retire you've gotten what you got you've gotten everything you ever needed from the source.

[00:33:57] And it you know step up learn about an L gap I literally was talking to somebody who was on staff for a long time today and I said I don't think they know they're an L gap.

[00:34:05] They'll be defensive I say in my call in my book here I don't I actually after all this I don't think that landmark is a cult per se they have they have problems and if they if they do more than in this

[00:34:23] situation then just move the furniture around the house and move a few walls but they actually really examine and they evolve they could I do there's just I'm always and I guess there's I'm always going to be a bit of that idealist maybe

[00:34:36] maybe a bit naive but maybe they could like they could actually be a part of making the world a better place because they do do a lot of things really well that's why they've been around this.

[00:34:48] I would I would say I agree with you and that I don't know if a landmark itself meets the definition of a cult I do think Warner is a cult leader and there is a cult of Warner. Right like there's definitely a cult of personality around.

[00:35:06] That's a great way to. That that does check out. I said yeah and that.

[00:35:11] I had this vision when I was meditating and I said this is like the whole landmark world if it was like a party like you pull up there's lots of cars on the street there's music playing on the lawn like it's so fun everybody's talking have a very self expressed you know fully and you get up onto the front porch and people are having these deep and

[00:35:29] insightful engaging conversations and then you get into kind of the living room you're moving into the heart of the party right and now there's like maybe some good argument going on but it's really deep and about important stuff and engaging and they're holding each other you know to their higher self and but in ways that aren't necessarily you know damaging right.

[00:35:48] And then you go into the kitchen somebody sends you into the kitchen to go get something and there's fires everywhere people are crying.

[00:35:57] They're running around like crazy they're upset they're you know super unhealthy like a lot of landmarks have a very unhealthy and you know it's like total mayhem and just lots of angst and upset and then somebody says hey will you go down to the seller you know and get me we need some more eggs or butter or whatever you know and go down to the seller and you go down to the seller and there's this guy.

[00:36:18] Down there that's. Pulling all the strings and everything is being run for fealty to this this guy this in the base you know that's in the background that's in way back there and it's all being done. You know.

[00:36:37] To take care of him to honor it's a very very big conversation the organization honor source in fact in 2020 2021 I don't know if they're still doing it or not because I don't.

[00:36:49] Do the programs and all my people on the inside I've gotten them out so I don't have inside information anymore but for the last three years there's been actually a five minute or so announcement in the programs that were about acknowledging source.

[00:37:02] They were tying themselves after 20 years of working to separate from where almost more than that what 30 they tied themselves back completely and totally because you never actually left.

[00:37:14] Right yeah well I was you kind of started to talk about this but I was going to ask you know kind of why now like when we spoke with you on the podcast previously.

[00:37:27] We didn't want to mention landmark explicitly because we were worried but at this point it seems like you're just kind of like that's it I'm done I'm ready to tell the story or is there more to why you've sort of chosen this moment.

[00:37:41] I think it's a lot of things that it's one been a lot of learning on my own part and and healing and kind of coming.

[00:37:49] It's kind of like when I when I found out explicitly about Warner's abuse it was sort of like you know when they do those eye tests and all of a sudden they like put that one in and you can see.

[00:37:59] Clearly and then I start reading and then I started getting some calls from reporters.

[00:38:05] You know the new about some of this stuff and they start talking to me and one of them tells me about this book out of this betrayal and I read it and suddenly like things that kind of had it made sense kind of start making sense

[00:38:18] and including if these programs are so great if it's so transformational why are people not flooding the doors.

[00:38:24] I remember when they were celebrating like one million people having done the forum and I was like well it's actually pretty lame y'all have been around like almost you know whatever it was 10 12 15 years by that time. And the program was that great.

[00:38:36] Like why don't we have millions why are people not knocking down the doors to do this I never understand that actually. So as I started to pull back and learn and learn and learn so there's a lot that's gone on there for me.

[00:38:52] I've been waiting for legal actions to move forward I don't I actually there's still some legal action that's in motion. But I'm you know I'm not free to talk about that I don't want to tell I don't want to risk that in any way.

[00:39:07] I think it's very unlikely that Warner will be held to account by the legal system. I think that there are thousands and thousands of people that are trying to be Warners Keith Reneary James Arthur Ray to name a few.

[00:39:21] And if we don't start talking about the dark side we're just going to get more of them all these things recognizing that that parts of the work that are good.

[00:39:30] You know when I refer to the work that's kind of how I refer to the tech the work of Lamar the parts that are good they already live.

[00:39:38] They're living out in graduates that are doing some amazing things like I used to believe that the only way that work could happen is if the organization was kept whole. I don't believe that anymore.

[00:39:49] I actually think it might be the dissemination of the organization for what is healthy and good for the work to actually flourish. And they and that's in part because they are very very very litigious that's the other thing there incredibly litigious they.

[00:40:03] You know I hope with everything in my heart that they don't come after me and try to have me you know not talk about them I can promise I'll talk about the good stuff as much as I'll talk about the bad stuff because it's there.

[00:40:15] But if we don't examine if we don't look how can we do better.

[00:40:20] The other thing is there's now so much you know every week there's another documentary there's another thing and what Lamar doesn't realize is their graduates are watching that their extra for watching that we're watching we're out here going holy shit was I in a cult.

[00:40:37] Like that's why my book is named that because that was the question we're asking and I've been waiting for three years for other people to tell the story.

[00:40:46] And it's like they weren't gonna and and then I've been kind of like also so scared of that of them that I already was in the prison so why not take the risk of getting public of talking about it of calling out the dark side highlighting the light side like what you know.

[00:41:12] I have tried to lay it down a lot like I have tried to lay it down and walk away and go do something else or whatever and have not.

[00:41:20] I share this in the book also but people because my whole adult career was spent with them people who want to avoid them won't do business with me because they think I am that.

[00:41:28] And people who want to do things that are afraid of them because they do you know they have very rigorous interpretations of intellectual property. I'm sorry to say.

[00:41:42] But you know they you know people who were going to do programs with me ended up getting letters from Lamarck and they think that's because they were working with so I was already in the prison. So why not tell. Why am I keeping their secrets.

[00:41:59] We see that proprietary thing so often with with personal growth organizations like like Scientology is famously really protective of their OT levels and and and like you see it over and over again.

[00:42:15] And I've always found that so interesting because my thought is if you're really trying to clear the world as Scientology says or you guys would say transform.

[00:42:27] Clear was their word I freaked out because we used to always say I'm going to clear you and clearing you for the evening session and clearing you and then I found out that was Scientology. I totally went out. You bet you bet.

[00:42:41] No I mean but it's so interesting because I always said if you're really looking to do that and you really want your your teachings and your philosophies to take root in the culture. You're not going to do that and and zealously protect your copyright at the same time.

[00:42:56] It's just not going to happen. Like when you look at a movement for example 12 step like a and and its derivatives I mean one of the reasons why that has become so firmly entrenched in the culture and had and really has become transformative.

[00:43:11] Yes because it was like it's a core principle of age that's the 12th step we give it away like like we went forth and we gave it away.

[00:43:20] You know likewise with gosh what's the most successful religion and Western civilizations Christianity because it's a core principle that you know you go make apostles you go spread the gospel.

[00:43:33] And so I always found it so interesting when when organizations like yeah we're going to jealously guard our secrets to me that mission and your business have a contrary.

[00:43:43] You know it's where capitalism and you know whether it's capitalism or commodification whatever but as soon as you start trying to commodify ideas.

[00:43:52] Now you got a you know yes I mean even to the Christian example yeah I was a Christian they'll believe Jesus loves me but wouldn't go to church if you paid me and but yes go out and apostolize and save it but bring him back to our church.

[00:44:10] Yeah but they have to come to this one they have to be this version of Christianity. This is the right way to it's there too.

[00:44:20] Yeah I'm like I never could understand that like about Lamar like I said like well wait even actually when they see they gave me my cease and desist maybe I'll get another one I don't know but my was that was like but wait I was going to actually I've been trying to reach you guys I was going to this next project that we're doing you know that

[00:44:39] you're now threatening me if I do we were going to create it could be a funnel to introduce people to the Lamar farm to be a whole other way people can you know what if that was one of the you know I had all these ideas these business ideas that would help grow the

[00:44:54] if it was the foreman literally that the person other friends said well you didn't you know like too bad you know I got a courtesy call like being told that I was going to get a letter from the lawyers that I couldn't do what I was doing and then I couldn't sell to their customers basically with the bottom line.

[00:45:12] It's just so philosophically inconsistent to assume that the mission and the business have to be at large and they clearly assume they have to be at log reds.

[00:45:24] But they but they don't like like what's good for the mission ideally is good for business to like like like I was thinking.

[00:45:31] Like every now and then someone asks me so I've got a bit of an online following and every now and then someone asks me so why don't you do like Glenn Doyle trauma recovery systems like like why not. Like this brand and do a product.

[00:45:47] Yeah, yeah seriously like start certifying people or you know somehow commodify it and my response to that and always has always been look if you read my stuff.

[00:45:55] You know that I'm not some great original thinker like I talk about really well established principles of recovery that are available for free everywhere. But here's the thing like and so my mission is to make them available to two survivors and those in recovery but man.

[00:46:13] My mission is also good for business like it's good for like like anybody who is a trauma informed practitioner is going to have far more people interested and knowledgeable about what they have to offer.

[00:46:25] Because again the major what's good for the mission is good for business and I've always been so stunned that land and landmarks certainly not the only such org but that they don't they don't realize that what's good for the mission is by definition good for.

[00:46:38] So many of the things that they do that have had people question whether they're a cult or not right so you know at one point I remember saying to somebody is like look okay I got you've got your whole defense Margaret Singer said you're not go go got it okay.

[00:46:51] Except for you got to wonder why 20 years later every people who are talking about coldest want to talk about landmark and you can't just keep threatening them to not talk instead why don't you join the conversation.

[00:47:04] Join the conversation get in the game and I could tell them you know they've they've disbanded the assisting program now now they charge for it now it's an academy.

[00:47:12] Another potential problem alert alert but and they could do it right who knows I don't know because I'm not I'm not enrolled but the assisting program like no do it in exchange for training say hey you can volunteer there's these kind of roles it's limited to these many hours because there actually are rules about you can only have people balance for so many hours and give them scholarships and limit their time and say okay you can volunteer you'll get a bunch of training you'll get to do that.

[00:47:42] To deepen the programs that one of the things volunteering did is it allowed people to do program but they couldn't afford it necessarily but they by assisting in it they could be in the conversation.

[00:47:51] It was right so many of the skills I have today or because I volunteered for a lot hundreds of thousands of hours of landmark. But the Department of Labor in 2006 and Texas actually issued a decision that that program was not was in violation of labor laws.

[00:48:07] They keep getting you can't post the PDF to get it they keep getting it taken down off the internet but you can find it called the Cold Education Institute has a copy so.

[00:48:19] But all they had to do was like give people scholarships so that they're getting remuneration in exchange right and it wouldn't be in violation of law.

[00:48:29] Okay you're an Elgat what does that mean I was talking with somebody today who is a big insight person and we were talking about Elgats I said what if they just owned they were an Elgat I don't even think Lambert knows they're an Elgat.

[00:48:41] I was shocked when I started studying I was doing content development for another person and I discovered what an Elgat was and I went oh my god we're doing Elgat trainings holy shit.

[00:48:51] I started studying I said oh well then be responsible for that you're gonna have this big hi person I'm talking to today was a big insight person he goes well at insight we would tell people don't do any make any major decisions in your life for two for at least two weeks after you've done the program because you're going to leave the program on a big high so don't make major decisions for two weeks.

[00:49:09] He goes didn't they do that at Lambert I'm like hell no they told you to get up and go on the phone bank and go make that call right now and tell your husband you want a divorce or you're gonna quit your job or whatever.

[00:49:20] God it's one of the most famous scenes from the Tony Robbins documentary on Netflix I'm not your guru famously he has this woman call her boy like they're in front of everybody I call her boyfriend on himself when I break up with him so no.

[00:49:35] To be clear mostly what was for reconciliation I don't want to be fair to them like most people in the Lamar forum call and make up with their relatives they don't break up.

[00:49:44] But I broke up with my husband and it was a healthy and good thing out of doing the Lamar forum that because as I mentioned I mentioned he was cheating doing drugs and.

[00:49:53] First of the point is they don't just they don't like what if you actually just don't like hey if you got a problem if it's a mental health problem or it's you're dealing with that that you should work with a mental health professional not us they actually have really good recommendations about that they just they don't always stick to them.

[00:50:12] For is for people who are healthy and well and hey this is a place you can come sort that out it's sort out do you want to change jobs are you in the right relation like it's a good place to sort that out.

[00:50:23] And then next time if that comes up again come to the forum again like it's not a it's not an answer like this whole thing where groups not just Lamar Lamar actually doesn't do this as horribly as many others like where the answer do the forum and your whole life is fixed.

[00:50:38] Do 10 years of therapy in three days in an evening and for $500 like stop trying to be what you aren't just be what you are honestly.

[00:50:48] And then you actually create a you know and then give everybody I was saying to give everybody $100 off and they can do the forum. I mean I buy a new pair of jeans at Nordstrom's every couple years.

[00:50:59] I don't count on the one I bought last year being the one I'm going to have five years from now like that kind to me it's that kind of thing like just be what you are honestly.

[00:51:09] If you're real and then allow yourself to be tested that's a whole gross thing you know like actually allow it to be tested you know test have been done on Elgat so far have shown that the results are temperate you know seven to 10 days.

[00:51:25] As a rule if Rick Ross knows the name of your organization should probably think about that just as a rule like if Rick Ross knows who you are.

[00:51:37] I would say Rick Allen Ross because of my daughter point out to me apparently there's some famous rap star or something now called Rick Ross I is I don't I did not know this until I told my daughter I had a conversation with Rick Ross he's like you talk to the music star I'm like what music star.

[00:51:55] Rick Rick Rick Ross has the Glenn and I have I have a Glenn and Doyle problem because I started to be a thing on social media everyone confused me and Glenn and Doyle so I had to.

[00:52:10] Awkwardly jam my middle name that's why I'm Glenn Patrick Doyle and everything cuz yeah so Rick Rick Allen Ross is the same. It was when I talked to Rick Allen Ross I was quite surprised that he was pretty straight with me that landmark is not a cult.

[00:52:27] Like it and for various reasons I told him well after I read my book you might change your mind so.

[00:52:34] He's reading the book right now I'm cross everything hopefully you know by the time this comes out the book will be out and hopefully there'll be a forward by Rick Allen Ross.

[00:52:42] But even if there isn't that he's been really instrumental in kind of helping me get straight cuz he believes it's very dangerous that we're lumping everything into cult.

[00:52:50] That we need to understand these layers you know a high control situation or coercive situations different I love the whole little bit cultie like to me that's kind of where landmark some of their practices like they keep getting lumped in with cults because they have.

[00:53:05] They have practices and culture that match that identity but like you said there's layers. Just do the programs do the programs get the tools they're great they're great they're great use them where they work keep them in the toolbox where they don't that's great.

[00:53:23] Rick Rick Allen Ross has that in common with with Jenny Brown Jenny famously dislikes when all these conversations are framed in terms of cults because she's very clear Kirby did not join a cult. So it's a no it's a conversation with nuances that is definitely.

[00:53:43] Is this a cult like don't shy away from the question but don't go for the easy answer either.

[00:53:49] Yeah yeah we've always used that language of cult like practices we see so many of these organizations in group using cult like practices even if the organization isn't strictly a cult but.

[00:54:04] As we're saying like and this is the same thing I would say with next year I'm like.

[00:54:10] What's going on at the core is is pretty clearly a cult but you have so many people move in and out of the organization that aren't really you wouldn't say that those people were in a cult so.

[00:54:24] Exactly yeah definitely distinctions and I think I use the analogy in the book of a house like if the foundation is called like.

[00:54:31] You can reshape that house but you're always confined by that foundation and you know what I mean you can't you can maybe add on a funky little add on over here and that to me is a lot of what Lamarks done and most people participate in Lamarks they don't know who Warner is.

[00:54:47] I don't even know who he is I mean unless they're still doing the announcements about acknowledging source but.

[00:54:54] That's a very recent thing so you know with coincidentally with when he started consulting the organization it was in more of the regular operations and the redesign of the forum and so on and suddenly now they have to do announcements acknowledging source what the heck.

[00:55:11] That's a little bit culty. Yeah yeah exactly. All right and so do you want to just quickly tell us what you're up to now and then we'll probably say goodbye for now.

[00:55:24] You know right writing this but I think I have a couple more books I think I'm still in the middle of this process like I'm I'm I'm sort of dealing with the personalities that I've had to grapple with now the last couple years and by the way Werner wasn't the only one I had a couple other clients that you know.

[00:55:40] Where anyway closely resemble narcissistic leaders but so taking that part I'm now really I'm starting to get really interested in the distinctions like the distinctions and the ideas where do those really come from how are they used in healthy ways and unhealthy ways.

[00:55:59] So I'm literally already starting to write a bucket list for writing that book and I am I have really dedicated that my new business illuminate illuminate dot life the website to be a safe place where we're out to build a marketplace using the seek safely ideals like that we've learned from over here at seek safely but to build a marketplace where practitioners can list their programs products and services but only practitioners who take the seek safely promise

[00:56:29] seriously where we're at work on building out what that infrastructure looks like and that consumers can come to and find programs and products and services and things this is the vision it'll take us a while to get there but.

[00:56:41] At least they know that those people behind those products have committed to safe and ethical practice of self development and personal development and just have to so you won't ever hear me talk about that without talking about seek safely because it was through you know your mom first when I met her and.

[00:56:59] When you and Glenn and the podcast reading your book and has been so much a part of my not just my education but that passion that I always had to want to make a difference.

[00:57:12] And then I've been able to make a career out of making a difference and I want to keep doing that but I want to be a part of the evolution of safer a much safer self development world so.

[00:57:22] I mean do whatever I can do we gotta go march on Washington Jean let's go.

[00:57:29] You know yeah and I'm really I'm happy and impressed with you know I think you're doing a really good job of holding onto the good things that you got out of all of your experiences the skills that you developed through all the work that you did and you say in in your book a few times not throwing the baby out with the bathwash.

[00:57:51] I mean I think that's valuable so yeah that's a big part of why I'm talking to you because this I yes I didn't plan on being the first person to say again this stuff about where it actually been said before but.

[00:58:04] Say it again it's coming I mean I've been getting calls from reporters for a few years it's coming it's coming it's coming and I wanted to also be a part of the saying because I will acknowledge the baby.

[00:58:15] That was important to me that was a big part of why write this book and why I talk now so.

[00:58:21] To be a voice for all those people that are going to be like me walking the neighborhood going oh my god did I just waste my life right now you didn't right you did for sure.

[00:58:31] So yeah we will definitely share information about the book where people can find it and I'm sure we'll have you back. We always love to talk with you. We are like scratch. Are you kidding me scratch the surface we've been talking for like a couple of hours.

[00:58:50] There's so many so many alleys in this neighborhood yeah I got it. Like like sometime for real since I'm not love to have you back.

[00:58:58] Jean loves when I spontaneously plan future episodes while I do I'd love to have you back and get more into the weeds about the content of being a leader and. Landmark generally and kind of chase down some of these things that we just kind of touched upon today.

[00:59:19] The connections between this and other programs and historical. I'm telling you I want to get into it because it's all over and it's pervading in our society these tools so we need to understand that well that's that's a question I had written down and didn't even get to.

[00:59:35] Was you know the corporate aspect of when this type of leadership training starts to go into corporate culture like Lulu lemon was having its employees do landmark trainings. Oh yeah. Mr. Chip being a leader course with me I have stories. Yeah so we didn't even go there.

[00:59:59] Yeah so did. And extra. A bunch and that's not always detrimental I'm actually doing some pickup work with a consultant that you know does ontological leadership development in organizations and.

[01:00:17] She's doing amazing stuff I just sat in on a two day session with a bunch of executives and it was pretty darn incredible like and this is like the screwdriver can build something beautiful or it can build something.

[01:00:29] It's not about the tool it's about how you use it and you do need to understand what you're using and that's if we keep trying to dumb these things down like responsibility being causing the matter.

[01:00:41] That you know and I'm now causing the matter of everything including the bus hitting me or the you know the guy raping me which is another way that gets used.

[01:00:50] Those that's using that tool for for Dane you know dangerous and destructive ways but if I'm causing the matter like hey I can really say how my life goes I don't have to be at the effect of that thing that you know that person just said to me I can I can like you know it's different

[01:01:08] It's there's healthy or unhealthy and we got to know the difference. So yeah let's go back to Glenn. I'm down got so much to talk to you so much to talk about and I'd love to introduce you to somebody named doctor Christine we love her.

[01:01:24] She's coming to the dark side she's selling a course. I mean it was awesome it was on LinkedIn and I was like oh my god it looks awesome I'm totally do it. She's spearheading transformational journeys.

[01:01:40] I love the teaser she did a thing where she just as kind of a prank she she she fed into chat GPT like like how would I sell this course with the language of self help and it came back I could spat bag like a transformational journey and I texted her I'm like really we're

[01:01:57] going to transformational journeys really that's what we're doing tell her if she wants to play call me because what I'm committed to is finding out figuring out how to do this stuff in ways that are transparent safe and ethical so she and I can play together awesome

[01:02:13] Illuminate will sell our courses on a limited stamp of approval. We should ask her if she signed the seat safely promise I'm sure she I think she has.

[01:02:23] We got to ask Christine will ask her be like before you start with this course did you actually sign the seat I know you're a board member but. Given she's on the board of directors I'm going to go ahead and make sure about that.

[01:02:35] All right well thank you so much and we so appreciate you guys. And I think it's Wednesday anyway spend. All right thank you thank you. Talk again soon.

[01:02:48] That's it for another episode of the seek safely podcast thank you all for tuning in if you love this episode please leave us a five star review rating at Apple podcast Spotify wherever you get your podcasts if you didn't like this podcast just forget I said anything how about that.

[01:03:07] All right. I'm Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle. All right. And this is Jean Brown. And thanks everyone for listening. That. Later taters.

[01:03:29] You can learn more about seek safely is mission and values or get involved yourself at seek safely.org you can follow and connect with seek safely on Instagram Twitter and Facebook.

[01:03:41] You can follow me Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle for psychology trauma and advocacy content on Instagram Twitter and Facebook until next time seek safely.