Chatting with India Oxenberg on the Self-help to Cult Pipeline

[00:00:00] At Seek Safely, it's our mission to empower seekers to have a safe and meaningful self-improvement journey. Why do we care? Seeking to be your best self is an amazing, beautiful human impulse that has led us to create art, invent technology, tell amazing stories, and reach the moon. But we saw the dark side of self-help in 2009 when a recklessly run self-improvement retreat led to the death of three people, including my sister, Kirby Bates.

[00:00:30] We want people to seek, to dream their big dreams and chase their beautiful goals. But we want to make sure they're safe along the way. This podcast is about education and empowerment and getting real about the promises and problems of self-help. We talk with people who understand and care about the self-help industry and everyone it touches. I'm Jean Brown. I'm Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle. And this is the Seek Safely Podcast.

[00:01:05] So, hello and welcome to the Seek Safely Podcast. We're very excited to have a guest joining us. Dr. Glenn, how are you doing? You're not our guest. You're my co-host. I was going to say, I've been demoted to, I mean, not that it's a demotion. My guest is like an honored thing. I'm great, Jean. Sorry, guest is above co-hosts, I think. True story.

[00:01:48] I'm a co-host. I think you're a host, I'm a host, I'm a host, I'm a host, I'm a host, I'm a host, I'm a host. You're an executive producer on the critically acclaimed documentary series, Seduced Inside the NXIVM Cult for Stars. And then you are also the author of the memoir, Still Learning. And you narrated your audio book, which is available through Audible.

[00:02:16] And then you're also producing the Still Learning podcast, engaging your audiences with ongoing conversational advocacy through interviews with compelling guests. And you're one of the founding members of Helix 180, an online healing hub for recovery. India, as I said, thank you so much for joining us. We're so happy to have you here.

[00:02:35] We've talked a lot about NXIVM on the podcast because it's a really interesting example of the kind of self-help to cult pipeline, something that our audience is really interested in. So yeah, welcome. Thank you for joining us amid everything that's going on. And you're also a new mom, so. I am. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Wow. Everything that you listed off feels like a totally different lifetime.

[00:03:04] Some of it is so recent. Yeah. After becoming a mom, my life is just like so different than that life that I felt like I lived just, you know, six years ago. Yeah, I know. I kind of share that experience. So my sister had passed away at the James Ray event in 2009, October 2009. And then my and I had just gotten married.

[00:03:29] And then my daughter was born in September 2012. Actually, my daughter, my oldest child, her due date was actually the anniversary of the Sedona tragedy. So that it was the anniversary of the day my sister died. That was my due date, which was very bizarre. Yeah. That was weird. Yeah.

[00:03:49] But it was so I know that experience of like, you have this huge thing that happens and then you become a parent and it really changes your life completely. And it's kind of an interesting like there's no segue there. It just happens. And so, yeah, a lot of that stuff that you listed, I felt like I was kind of slingshotted back into my life.

[00:04:13] Things just happen so quickly from, you know, leaving the cult in 2018 to that same year, the fire hitting my home and destroying everything. And I just had like, to say the least, a massive identity crisis. And I just like was like, who the fuck am I after all of this? Like, I just felt so stripped down of everything that I had identified as India.

[00:04:41] And it was both like depressing and freeing in a weird way. Like, I didn't have any of the things that I was excited to go back to from the group. Instead, I was surrounded by my family and, you know, my then boyfriend, now husband. And I just had to kind of start from scratch, it felt like.

[00:05:04] But then also kind of revisit my childhood to help me inform myself about who India was before the shit really hit the fan. Right. Well, that's something that you talk a lot about. By the way, as I DM'd you earlier on Instagram, I just finished up the book. And thank you so much for sending me that copy. It's super evocative. I mean, I'm one of these freaks who like has read all the NXIVM books. I read your mom's book a few years ago.

[00:05:34] Yeah, I did too. And by the way, super interesting experience. It's like, so your mom's book kind of this, you know, the account of the experience from her end. And then to read the account of the experience from your end. And it's really interesting to see like there are incidents that I recognize from having read her book. Like, so for example, you guys getting together at the ice cream shop. I'm like, wait a minute. I know what she's talking about. One of the things that you talk about a lot is that, and it's something that I talk about a lot too.

[00:06:04] It's like the damage done was not done all at once. Like it wasn't like there was this big thing that like, wow, that's my trauma. But it was the experience of having been drawn off the course of what you would have done otherwise. Like normal developmental experiences. Yeah. Like you talked about like, man, I really wish my 20s had been about like doing the stupid stuff you're supposed to do in your 20s, right? Yes. In a safe environment. Yes. Yes.

[00:06:33] And there are all these kind of unanswered questions about like, well, man, had I had the opportunity to do that in a normal way? Like what my life had looked like if I didn't have this damage to repair and kind of the sense of that skewed timeline, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of, I mean, that's exactly how it felt too, was like I was there for a really long time just kind of in the what ifs.

[00:07:00] And I think that's kind of one of the aftershocks of being in shock. Like you start to question and reflect on all of the decisions that you made to get yourself to that point. And for me, there was a lot of self-hatred involved in that process. And so I found that instead of recovering, I think I was like repenting in a lot of ways because, and I'm not that religious of a person.

[00:07:27] Like I've actually had to find my spirituality back again through nature, through meditation and mind-altering substances and reconnecting to what brings me joy. And then finding my spirituality back. But I had lost that for a long time and I had really disconnected from what mattered to me in my life to the point where like I just was so numb to anything.

[00:07:53] Like I would see things that would normally bring somebody emotion and I wouldn't feel anything. And I was like, who is this person? And that person was me. And it just like, I, you know, through rationalization and brainwashing, I just accepted the fact that was who I was really instead of questioning, wait, what's happening to me here?

[00:08:15] Because I was so used to, I was just so used to being, I guess, in environments where I felt like gaslit, I guess. Oh, yeah. You felt gaslit. You were gaslit 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And when you're a kid, you don't really recognize those things as much. But they, if they're, you know, if you're surrounded by environments where you're always like, this is weird, but I don't know why. You're going to walk through life like that.

[00:08:41] Like even as an adult, you're going to be like, instead of going, this is weird. I know why. And I'm getting the fuck out of here. You know, like I had to learn that language again as an adult. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and that's the thing that, I mean, something that really struck me kind of reading about your experience was like, so a really formative experience of yours, like as a kid. So you were a dyslexic kid. Yep. Still am. Yeah, right?

[00:09:11] Yeah. And it was funny, like there's a point later on in your book. I think it's in fact, even in the epilogue where you're like, if you saw like the rough draft of this, you'd see all the misspellings and whatnot. But I mean, I got the real sense that that really impacted at least when you were really young, like it kind of impacted your identity on the one hand.

[00:09:31] And you said like, well, man, when I got into this environment with Nexium, they were making me feel smart and resourceful in a way that, like I was thinking about that in juxtaposition to your experience with, like you talked about at one point, being put in like the special class, right?

[00:09:50] Like, which at the time didn't make a lot of distinction between like, okay, so this person needs support with this dyslexia versus ADHD versus the autism spectrum, et cetera, et cetera. And you being in that class going, what am I doing? Like, what does this mean? Like, what does this mean for my identity feeling negative and special in a negative way? Yeah, not special good. I was definitely feeling like special. I don't want to stick out because I felt ashamed. Oh, big time. Big time.

[00:10:18] Definitely did not understand my brain like I do now. Absolutely. And it's funny because like there's stuff that I really appreciate about my dyslexia too. I think in a lot of ways it helped me reprogram myself because I hate rules and I hate following instructions. So one of the things that it like made more enjoyable, even though obviously there are really dark days where I was like, I don't think I want to deal with this anymore. This intrusiveness.

[00:10:48] I was very playful about like, okay, I'm going to take these words that were implemented into my brain as such and I'm going to rewire that and change it for myself. Like this definition doesn't exist in the same way as it used to. And like reframing things is one way to do that. And then actually just through a lot of repetition and my mind likes repetition because it likes patterns and, you know, things like that are fun for me.

[00:11:14] So I've had to find like creative approaches to recovery because in a lot of ways traditional therapy was really reminiscent and triggering of my time in the group. So it's like, you know, I've done quite a bit of exploring with what works and what doesn't work for me. And I try to stay as open as possible when it comes to recovery because, I don't know, you're like, I do believe that you know what you need to heal.

[00:11:41] But you also might surprise yourself when you open up your world a little bit that there's even more good stuff out there to help you. But from, you know, from your bedroom, it can feel really scary to go out and explore again, especially after trauma. 100%. I find this really interesting. Like we talk a lot about trying to protect people from getting into these situations to begin with.

[00:12:05] And one of the things that we've been promoting is this idea of really kind of defining and holding on to your sense of self and your, you know, your values and your identity and your strengths and your weaknesses to have a lot of self-awareness before you undergo like the search for that thing that you're looking for.

[00:12:28] But I like what I'm hearing from you is a lot about using those same ideas and those same things as part of your recovery, like really connecting to yourself. And that's so powerful, especially because what the cult does is it completely detaches you from yourself, right? That's the whole. That's their whole mission. They basically want you to be a drone of theirs with no self-expression, no individuality.

[00:12:55] So like in a rebellious way, if you're on your healing journey, one of the most fun things to do is say, fuck you and do the opposite that they told you. It might happen like your fight or flight or just PTSD. But then it's like, whoa, this is a fucking rush. Like, you know, you have to be able to challenge some of those things.

[00:13:16] And sometimes it's you're just so overwhelmed by the past that the idea of like exposure therapy or, you know, a.k.a. social anxiety in my opinion is like too much at times. So I've had to like realize that if I'm going to do stuff, set myself up for success as much as possible because sometimes things can go really bad. And like for the longest time, I could not go to a wedding without having a PTSD episode.

[00:13:46] It was like a joke between my husband and I, but like a horrible joke because I would end up ruining the whole evening for myself in a depressive spiral where I would just be like so, so unstable. And it's taken me literally five and a half years to be able to go to a wedding and actually enjoy it.

[00:14:10] So I was committed to that because I was like, why can I not have this fucking luxury of being like a normal person who can go to something beautiful and joyous and celebratory and have a good time? Why do I hate this? And I was like, I am going to change this. But it was not, it was tumultuous, but it was like, that's just one example of so many things that once you get a lot of your normalcies ripped away from you, you have to go back in and rebuild.

[00:14:40] A lot of things that have been perverted or tainted that are actually supposed to be beautiful and lovely. You bet. Well, something that kind of on that subject, something that really leaps out of me is there were various times, it sounds like there were various times in NXIVM, especially as things were falling apart, where they would come at you with like, well, you know, you can be helpful for us because you're so good at interacting with people.

[00:15:05] You're kind and you're nice and you're sweet and people like you and, and, and you're kind of this, this good front woman, which is kind of ironic because you were never really on the inner, inner circle. Like, like you weren't really kind of like around, like on Alice and Max level or, or, or whatever. I was like fringe, the horrible, cool kids. Right. The horrible, cool kids. Wow. That can be like the title of this, this episode, the horrible, cool kids. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like, I really wanted to be in, but at the same time they terrified me.

[00:15:35] Hello, red flag. Seriously. For real. But that's the thing. Like, like they make this show of, well, man, we're going to teach you to be, especially NXIVM, like we're going to teach you to be committed to your goals and, and to, to not bail on yourself. And, and we're going to collateralize it even. And, and they make this show of it being about you as an individual. But the truth is that they didn't actually want like an empowered autonomous individual, right? Like they actually wanted someone just going to do what they wanted you to do.

[00:16:05] How twisted is that? That's the, the really like sci-fi angle of what I think that I went through that a lot of people who have been involved in the self-help sort of guru or dogma kind of path gone wrong can probably relate to, which is like, why did I so badly believe that it was this person or this thing that was going to give me the thing that ultimately you have for yourself?

[00:16:33] And I know that sounds really corny and cheesy, but it's true. And I wish that I had that education that you're talking about, Jean, where before somebody goes on a, you know, an inner quest, they know the red flags of what's out there because there's a lot of shiny, exciting looking things in the wellness industry and in the mental health industry that to me are really dangerous.

[00:16:59] Like for instance, I wish that I wish that I would have known about the fact that there are bad therapists. There are people out there that are therapists that are fucked up, that want your money, that don't work on their own shit and they'll use their intelligence and their, you know, degrees to fuck you up. And I didn't know that.

[00:17:18] That's what I think was attractive to me with the whole NXIVM thing was because it had to do with philosophy and psychology and things that intrigued me that I just assumed if you're studying this, you're a good person. I wish, I wish that was the case. Are you kidding me?

[00:17:36] Well, and I think it's also the way that you describe how, you know, they filled a need for you and making you feel smart when previously due to, you know, neurodiversity, like you, you felt, you know, sidelined and your intelligence wasn't really appreciated in the traditional education system and stuff. Not by myself either.

[00:18:27] I wish I would have been safer than I was because I assumed that my differences were problematic and part of the reason why I was depressed, you know? So I'd say like, I wish I would have known that too, that there wasn't really anything wrong with me. It's such a conundrum because like you follow my Instagram stuff. Indy and I have been Instagram buddies for a minute.

[00:18:57] Yeah, I really appreciate your words. Like you just get to the point so quickly. Oh, that's just on Instagram. That's not on the podcast. That's a very different thing. No, but that's awesome. I mean, they help me in a nanosecond. So I imagine I'm not the only one, obviously. I'm glad for that. But, you know, something that's, you know, just always occurs to me is that my whole shtick is that recovery is more important than therapy. Like therapy can be a tool of recovery.

[00:19:24] But recovery needs to happen and is going to happen whether or not you get into therapy. Again, therapy can be a tool. And it's not always the right tool for everybody, right? Exactly. And it's a particular problem when the person has a license and has credentials and has the experience and is just a bad therapist or somebody with ill intent, etc.

[00:19:43] Like Jenny Brown and I have this conversation all the time because she's always said, well, man, we really need to steer people away from, you know, the self-help people or wellness people and toward like licensed professionals. And I've always kind of raised the flags like, well. Like, eh, it's on both sides. Yes, but. But I agree with you. It's like it's not the only tool. It's just one tool. And I've used therapy at different times in my recovery when I really needed it.

[00:20:07] And I've had great therapists who have gotten me to certain stages through certain challenges. And then I'm like, okay, now it's back to my inner authority because that's been my primary thing that I've wanted to heal was, you know, thy know thyself kind of thing. Like I just wanted to be the one who I could rely on again. And so, you know, having a wonderful therapist who you trust and you love is awesome.

[00:20:34] But building that relationship with yourself is really important too. Oh, man. Well, I always say that. I mean, therapy for most people is 55 to 60 minutes out of the week. And there are 167 hours that you're not in therapy per week. And that's when recovery happens. Like I always think of. Yeah, or crazy time. Right? That's what happens when it doesn't happen. Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:01] I think of this whole project of recovery as like, okay, your therapy session, like if you're a professional fighter or boxer or something, and you've got like one minute to come back to the corner between rounds, and I can kind of patch you up and give you some feedback and stuff. But then you're back out there. Like that's the recovery. Like you're out there. I can't be out there with you. But that was kind of the appeal of NXIVM was the idea like we're going to equip you with philosophies and tools that are not dependent on a therapist, but that you will internalize, you'll become a better person, right?

[00:21:31] You will build character. And is the whole shtick. It's so interesting. Character in theory is just theory. It's like reading a lot of books that you know who you are when like shit goes down and you have to actually act. Like you can have all the theory in the whole world. And then, you know, when you're really confronted with the challenge, that's when you get to know yourself. And that's kind of like where I was naive was just assuming once again, oh, these people are saying these things.

[00:22:00] So they must be these things. And that's just not true. And, you know, back to what you were saying in the self-help world. How about just like being a wellness influencer? Or there's such a buffer with you and technology from like who you actually might be. And I try not to be like too much of a conspiracy theorist, but I've also become like both less trusting and more trusting in the past couple of years. Like I'm trying to add discretion in that process.

[00:22:30] I don't trust a lot of these people until I actually know them that they're genuine or not. Yeah. Yeah. It's so easy to create a persona now that it's, yeah, it's very hard. It makes it really hard. And I think for many people, like I think many people you want to trust, you know, like you want to believe it, right? And somebody's showing you something that looks good and it sounds good. And there might be parts of it that like really resonate with you.

[00:22:59] And I think it just pulls us to like, yeah, we want to believe it. We want to buy into it. One of the things that I think is really valuable about your story is, you know, you're talking about you were young, you didn't know, or you were naive. But, you know, we try to identify people who are especially kind of susceptible to these types of things. That's bang on, like being in your early 20s, like you don't have a ton of life experience yet, but you're motivated. You're at that kind of like launching off point in your life.

[00:23:28] And that seems to be a really big part of your story that I think is instructive for people and useful for young people to keep in mind. Totally. And in terms of self-help gurus, so this is stuff I really like talking about. So Keith, and we won't belabor this because he's an unpleasant guy to think about. Yeah. Something that occurs to me is one, I mean, for a long time, you actually, it seems like you didn't even have much of a, much contact with him. Like he was kind of very much removed.

[00:23:57] Like you didn't see him a whole lot, but there was this mythos around him. Right. Like evil Oz. Like evil Oz, right? Yeah. He was the smartest man in the world. He was like, there were kind of all these things. He very much built up his cult of personality within NXIVM, it sounds like. Like it really reminds me of the philosopher Ayn Rand, who he was a big fan of. He was obsessed. Right?

[00:24:21] So Ayn Rand always used to run around talking about how, like she had a whole philosophy that was all about individualism and whatever. But when people would say, well, how do you know your philosophy works? She would say, well, look at me. Like I am the embodiment of all of my values and I am successful and I have no disintegrations and whatever. That was kind of his shtick, right? Like I look at me, like I. He just stole that from the book. He did. Straight up. And he also used to say that he didn't read.

[00:24:48] So like he basically, he probably just took the cliff notes of Ayn Rand and then just stole from a bunch of people. It's this fascinating mishmash of NLP and objectivism and Scientology. There's some Scientology mixed in, right? With like the suppressive people. Like there's, it's a, it's kind of a fascinating mix. Tony Natale has a fun story that she tells about the moment she decided to leave the relationship was, was he had not paid.

[00:25:17] She had asked him not to dry a certain sweater of hers and he tossed it in the dryer anyway. It completely shrunk. And she came in, she was mad and he was reading Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard. Like looks up from his Dianetics. He's like, what? Why are you mad about this, this sweater? But that, you can see his influences just, just kind of, just kind of all over the place. Is it your impression that, well, for you personally, I'm going to say this. Was it about the tech? Like you're like, wow, these are useful and powerful principles and tools.

[00:25:47] Or did his mythos kind of play into that? Or kind of what was it for you? Like what was the hook for me? Yeah. I think it was the tech because it's what I wanted to believe I was doing there was really motivating to me. And I believed based on their sales pitch that I was there to heal past traumas that were blocking me from future success.

[00:26:13] And then build sort of entrepreneurial slash business degree that, that their trainings were going to provide me that kind of education. Like an alternative to college, basically. And so for me, that's what I thought I was exchanging. And what I learned was some tools, like we said, that are regurgitated from other kinds of modalities.

[00:26:38] Some of which actually have merit, some of which are just totally, you know, surrounded by his mythology. So that obviously doesn't. And then they created these arbitrary systems of ranking that were intended for people to measure their growth. And that to me was always a real curiosity because I grew up in LA surrounded by a lot of different weird groups.

[00:27:05] And I was always like, these people are so into self-help, but like, how the fuck do you know that you're actually growing? Like I didn't, that was like a question that I had even as a teenager that, that added to skeptic, like being more of a skeptic, a little jaded. Obviously I was a freaking teenager, but it wasn't until I got into actual extreme self-help, if you will,

[00:27:29] that I realized like, whoa, there's a lot of people who are really well-intended, who are high functioning, successful people who still want to be better. And that was who they went after. Because you had to have a certain level of motivation and a certain level of, you know, ability to be able to keep up. And a certain income, like a certain level of resources.

[00:27:54] Exactly. So you either working two jobs or, you know, you came from money or like there, there was all sorts of different people and financial situations in NXIVM. There was a point where I just ended up working in exchange so I could pay as little as possible, but I also worked them as a way to afford them. So like they were really encouraging of your blood, sweat and tears because then they kind of possessed you as like a workhorse.

[00:28:22] It's like basically like going to the ashram or living at the ashram. You know what I mean? No, big time. Big time. And that's, and it's funny you should mention that because I, there's something that occurred to me while, again, while reading your story was, you brought up repeatedly that like when you came close to leaving at various times, because it's not like you were completely enchanted at all times. Like there were times when you came close, but something that seemed to come up a lot was like, dude, I am making no money. I'm here in Albany. I'm making no money.

[00:28:50] Like I have no prospects, like whatever. And they'd be like, well, we'll take care of you. It was kind of this nebulous promise to take care of you, whatever. Right. And when you eventually ended up leaving, like, dude, I got to go, like, I got to go to me. I got to pursue something. I'm broke. So them kind of keeping you in that one down position while on the one hand, it was a control tactic, of course. On the other hand, it kind of led you to be like, man, like this, I'm out of here. Like I can't, I can't grow under these circumstances.

[00:29:16] Exactly. I think that kind of collision with reality and the fact that everybody was fleeing was part of what woke me up. Obviously there was a lot of other things going on simultaneously, things that my mother was doing, things that were happening in the media, but I didn't shed the illusion all at once. It was in layers that I came, you know, back to life, back to reality.

[00:29:42] It's like, that was one of my personal mantras because I was just like, I used to think that was real life. And what I'm actually engaging with now, when I left, when I went to New York City, when I got another job at a restaurant, was reality and I was like, holy shit, this is scary. Because I started to see for the first time out of the bubble of the cult, I could start to see into it instead of just being immersed in it.

[00:30:10] And I, and slowly but surely, the appropriate fear started to reenter my body. And it's taken a long time for me to process that because it was so unconscious to me, if that makes sense to you. Like it was literally just like in my cells, in my brain, in my body, in food, in sex, in music, in everything.

[00:30:34] It was perverted. So I feel like I've had to like purge myself of what felt like a really poisonous seven years and be like, are we still there? Are we still good? Like, you got a heartbeat? You know? So sometimes we ask this question of folks who have had high control experiences. We were just talking about this at the Sikh Safety Summit a couple months ago.

[00:31:00] But if you took away the most toxic parts of the experience, and by the way, one of the things that is really apparent about your life, when we brought you on and said, yeah, you're an activist and stuff, one thing we didn't say, you're a noted foodie. Yes, I am. Your love affair with food weaves in and out of your story in the most unexpected places. And I love to see it. Yeah. And my husband's a chef and he's an awesome chef and he has a restaurant.

[00:31:27] And so like, I love working with him, being behind the counter, taking orders, selling food, eating food. Like it's a huge passion of mine. Absolutely. And which leads to the observation that probably the poorest control strategy to keep India Oxenberg in your cult is to shame food and restrict calories. And make me a vegetarian. Did they not even know you? Like, dear Lord.

[00:31:55] Oh, yes, they did. And you know why? Because I gave them all the answers. That's fair. And they were really good at extracting things. You bet. You bet. But anyway, so if you took away the most toxic parts of your experience, like say DOS was never a thing. Correct. And the sexual stuff with Raniere and the drastic restriction of Cal, like that, take that stuff away. Okay.

[00:32:22] Do you think that, or how long do you think you would have stuck with it had those parts not happened? Like if DOS had never been a thing? This is a really good question. You know, it's a really good question because I remember very clearly when I was in there before a lot of that stuff started. Obviously, I actually, not obviously, I say it like you, you know, you were there. I went crazy before DOS. And I started to kind of start to lose my mind

[00:32:50] a little bit. Like, I don't like pathologizing myself all that much because I don't like putting myself in like negative boxes. But if I look back at my behavior and the way that I was thinking and acting towards myself, I was very, there was a lot of self-harm and I was doing things that were hurtful to me. So if I take away all the toxic stuff, like, or the majority of the toxic stuff

[00:33:14] that was more towards the end, I thought I was going to stay there forever because I really felt like this was my destiny. Like that I was here to learn, to grow. And I believe that all the things that I had dreamed of wanting before were superficial and that I didn't, that being in the entertainment

[00:33:34] industry or, you know, pursuing my career aspirations were against my ideology. Like that's how they trained me to think. So I was like, well, I'm willing to trade all of that for depth. Like, if that's what you're going to give me, I I'll give up all the materialism. I don't care about that stuff. I just want to know who I am. Like that was my inner quest. And they, you know, use that

[00:34:02] against me, but I probably would have stayed forever because I'm, I don't know. I'm like that stubborn or something. And I really wanted to figure out how to love myself and know who I was. And they said they were going to help me. So like, that's the scary truth is that I don't think that I would have left if it didn't blow up. I think about this all the time in regards to NXIVM. Like

[00:34:28] I think about Sarah Edmondson story and had she not been sucked into DOS and, and what, like, like she was doing really well selling the programs and they had a successful center and, and, and whatnot. And my observation is, well, man, there's plenty about NXIVM that was toxic, even if DOS had never existed. Right. Like there's plenty about kind of that pyramid scheme structure and, and kind of the, the NLP stuff that was more manipulative.

[00:34:56] Breaking people down to build them up. Like all of that's just abusive. Yeah. And people get kind of fixated on the sex cult piece of it. Cause of course they do. But I always kind of wonder like, okay, even if that had never existed, would people have kind of caught on to the, the toxicity or was the indoctrination sufficiently powerful that, that people would just kind of kept on keeping on and, and, and like, how long would it have, would it have gone on for?

[00:35:23] Well, there's so many cults and there's so many high control groups out there that you could say, like, as long as people are willing to sweep things under the rug, they'll last forever. I mean, like I, I'm not someone who likes to say, oh, religion is bad because I don't believe that. I think that within religion, there's always going to be people who want to control and, and take advantage of people. They're the ones that are bad, not necessarily what's being taught on a,

[00:35:51] you know, more grand scale, which could be really nice and about morals and values and whatnot. But people are the ones that corrupt things. And so if you are seeking community and you're seeking, you know, camaraderie, because you're going through a hard time, like listen to that instinct, because it might be something you need, but vet what it is that you're going to, because that's when

[00:36:16] people try to take advantage of you when you are most vulnerable, but that can also be the greatest opportunity for healing. Like I've recovered in group and been abused in group. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, we often talk about this, that anything that has the power to potentially transform your life positively also has the power to just destroy your life, right? Like if it has power at all, it has both possibilities. Yeah. And I mean, earlier it was so important to like,

[00:36:46] I think these types of groups really target the people who are so motivated. And that's something that we always talked about with regards to my sister as well. Like she was exactly the type of person who was always going to put the whole effort, like a hundred percent effort into whatever she was doing. And I think it's that motivation and they've given you the promise of the thing that you needed to hear. And you're the type of person that is going to be like, yeah, I'm always going to

[00:37:15] go after that thing. It's like the perfect coupling to just keep you going forever. Yeah, I know. And I hope that anyone who's listening, who has been, you know, either within a group like this or has a friend in a group like this or a loved one knows that like at a certain point, it is the person's choice to start to the bad or the scary or the traumatic things that might've happened to them.

[00:37:44] And that's some sadly not a pain that you can take away from them. If you want to recover, you kind of have to go there and go through it. And sometimes that's so scary that you don't even want to confront it. And like, I just feel, you know, I feel bad for people who are still kind of believing that the way that they're treated in an abusive context is the love that they deserve,

[00:38:09] because I feel like we all know that's not true. And that would be my greatest joy if I could help people break out of that horrible conundrum of settling for not love. Hmm. Okay. So The Vow, season one really focuses heavily on Mark and Sarah and kind of, and your mom and, and that journey of getting the New York Times article published and, and Frank Parlato, kind of all

[00:38:37] these, all these really interesting, colorful characters, but your voice is largely absent from it because it was kind of like, like in that period of time where you were still in. Yeah. I didn't, I've never even seen The Vow to be honest. And I, because I figured that I lived it, so I didn't have to rewatch it again, but I really appreciate, I appreciate any content that's out there that shows how cults work. Honestly, I think the more the merrier.

[00:39:05] So, okay. Well, that, that partially answers what I was just going to ask. Like, so in season two of The Vow, one of the interesting, super interesting things was there's a lot of camera time for Nancy. Nancy sits down and, and really kind of gives her side of things and kind of talks about how, how she was manipulated by Reneri and at points where she kind of saw red flags, but kind of ignored them or didn't understand what they were at the time, et cetera, but, but kind of talks about her

[00:39:32] story of, of being victimized as well. I think that would still be really hard for me to watch because Nancy was just such a big figure in my cult life. And she had like a pretty much ultimate authority next to Keith on how things ran and how people were treated. I wanted to ask you something that I was thinking about when it comes to

[00:39:59] just like, I wanted to know what your belief about forgiveness was, because I know you write a lot about it. And I feel like what you're asking me has to do with how I feel about forgiveness in some ways, because if I was able to like, if I was able to watch her, how do I feel about her? Like, have I come to terms with who she was to me, to other people? Do I feel like she's, you know,

[00:40:24] responsible? Do I think that it's even healthy for her to be on camera? Like I have so many mixed feelings about that. And I don't have a clear answer actually. Oh, big time. God, I have such mixed feelings. You can imagine. I have such mixed feelings about, you use this term on your podcast recently about trauma porn.

[00:40:48] Yeah, that's what it is. I mean, like, honestly, that's one of my biggest issues with the entertainment industry is like, as much as I've wanted to be an activist in it, I also feel like some of it is so exploitative. And I'm like, I can't, I just like, can't get down with that. And I, but at the same time, like people probably tuned in to hear what Nancy had to say, because she's both a victim and a victimizer. And that's like really tantalizing. Absolutely. And I have such mixed feelings about it.

[00:41:17] I have such mixed feelings about it because on the one hand, I think it can be that content can be really powerful in normalizing some of these experiences, right? Like this idea, you know, that like, like, so your story, like seduced in the book, like, like the same thing, right? Like, like it can really normalize. Like, I think something that, that you have really put out there is like, you know, look, I'm, I'm a person who is like, I'm, I'm smart and, and I'm, you know,

[00:41:44] conventionally attractive. And I came with like, I'm from royalty. Like I'm literally from royalty, like this super privileged position. And I got sucked in. Like they were able to like, kind of play on my sense of, of otherness and, and, and inadequacy and whatever, et cetera. And so I think when that kind of story is out there, you know, we can kind of cut ourselves a bit of a break that man, India could get suckered into this. Like maybe it's not, you know, maybe I

[00:42:10] can get suckered into it. Right. And, you know, likewise, I think it's really valuable to have narratives out there about how being abused can lead you to become, you know, could get sucked in, become part of the, I can think about this about Alison Mack as well. Right. The wheel of abuse. Right. Exactly. Oh my God. You're gutting me right now. I mean, like I feel what you're saying so deeply because

[00:42:33] I, I don't know. It's true. It's true. It's like, I couldn't even see myself as I had become the monster that was also abusing me. And I've had so much shame about that. But the fact that you said that maybe me sharing my story could also relieve somebody else of shame, like that helps me heal. Absolutely. Because that's for me, honestly, like I hope to God that whatever I say does help somebody else

[00:43:02] say like, you know what? Fuck this baggage. I'm not going to carry this. If she, if it could happen to her and it happened to me, I'm free. Absolutely. Because like I tortured myself over everything that I did when I was there in the group, because I, I felt so like messed up inside and I was also being abused. And I was like, how could I let this happen? How could I be so blind to being a cog in the wheel of abuse? But then I also had to learn

[00:43:30] to forgive myself there because look at history. I mean, like this happens to a lot of people, a lot of cultures, a lot of women, a lot of men, a lot of whoever get sucked down. Absolutely. I even think about gangs and I'm like, this is the process of like, people are think that they're so fucking removed from gang behavior. I'm like, no, you're not. I was like, this was a gang. It just, they just pretended to be nice people. Right.

[00:44:00] Oh, you bet. I'm sorry. I get really riled up about this. No, it's fair. And it's like, we've talked about that a lot. Like one of the things that makes me angry, I get angry about this too. I think these types of groups, they exploit some of the best parts of people and turn them against themselves, which is terrible. And then they also, so many people's stories who have been in groups like this are this story of being both the abuser and the abused,

[00:44:30] you know, being the victim and the perpetrator. And that makes it just even more difficult to grapple with coming out of it. But yeah, that is very common. Yeah. No kidding. That makes your healing journey a little tumultuous. Yeah. It just, it sucks. Like, and I get riled up about it too, because I'm like, man, it just, it messes, it messes people up. And it's come from, you were always coming from the purest place. You were, but I guess there was a strain in there, whatever you believe. Like I personally

[00:44:59] believe in karma. And so I feel like for me, there was a strain in there that needed to get blown up out of me because I really believe in like, this ends with me. Like this is not going to be something that my daughter will deal with. And I have to, I don't want to, I live already in enough fear because I'm like a five foot five woman walking around in certain towns where you

[00:45:26] don't feel safe. And other, I mean, I'm lucky that I live in a safe town, but still like the world is not at large, a safe place for everybody. You try your best shit happens and like you try to recover from it. But like, I have not met one person that hasn't had a traumatizing life-changing event. Yeah. It's interesting. So we were talking a moment ago about Raniere's influences and Ayn Rand. So

[00:45:52] there's, there's a large strain in Ayn Rand stuff about how she was very, like she very much couched her philosophy in goodness and badness, like moral goodness and moral badness, like morally good people were producers and morally bad people were parasites and these kinds of things. And there's a very strong strain in that Randian thought of, we have a moral responsibility to shame the parasites. Like we need to see badness and call it out and call it for what it is. And I feel like Raniere just kind of cut

[00:46:22] and pasted that. For sure. Like, you know, like that, there's a, I swear to God, there's a large contingent of people on the planet who think that shame is a really effective, necessary tool to change behavior. And it's so destructive. It's so, so destructive. Yeah. It's a, it's abuse. I mean, first of all, I mean, if I'm outing myself now, I was considered a parasite within the group. So I'll raise my hand to that. I was a parasite.

[00:46:46] I believe that of myself. I've now come to terms with the fact that I am a highly functioning person who can do a lot of stuff at once. And I've had to learn how to slow down instead of like, you know, constantly trying to prove my worth by doing stuff for free. You know, just, just quickly circling back around to what you asked a second about forgiveness. I think that the concept of forgiveness is, is really complicated mostly by the fact that no

[00:47:13] two people seem to mean the same thing when they say it, right? Like there are super religious people who have like one idea there. I mean, it's, I, I, one of my famous quotes floating around up there somewhere is like, you know, look, you have nothing to be forgiven for, for being traumatized. However, that language of I forgive myself can be very healing. And so if the language helps and you'll know, like, like if you start using that language with yourself and your own recovery

[00:47:40] work, like you'll know if it, if it lifts something for you, use it and don't get caught up in the logistics of like, well, but what am I forgiving myself for? I mean, use it. If it's, if it's a effective tool, go ahead and use it. But it's a, but it, but it's much like any trauma, the word trauma is the same thing. Like, like people question, like they're saying, Doyle, you're talking about trauma all the time. Is that useful or victim or like whatever it is?

[00:48:05] I'm like, well, no two people mean the same thing when they say trauma or victim or whatever. So I'm a big fan of whatever things mean in your recovery. Like that's the world you have to live in. So that's the, yeah, that's what you have to deal with. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And that just goes back to me for me to the whole good and bad thing too, because it's, it really, you're the one who has to live with yourself. And so if you can find a

[00:48:34] way to, you know, be okay with you, I think that's really important. We can start there. Like I just, I said the last time I was talking to someone like close to me that I couldn't just jump from numb to normal. Like you have to like go through a whole spectrum of feelings in between to bring that vitality back into your life. It's not always pretty. Absolutely. I, I have great respect for a

[00:49:02] lot of the things that, that you've done with your recovery. And I'm mindful of how public so much of your recovery has been. Like I remember watching seduced and this is the long before we were acquaintances, but watching seduced and you're doing things like, like they've got you on camera talking to Rachel Bernstein and you're going back to the scene of a lot of these events and stuff. And as a therapist, I'm going, Oh wow. Like this is a lot of potential triggers that

[00:49:27] she's exposed to on camera. So the fact that you're making kind of this public advocacy and education, you know, part of your recovery work, I know is fraught and not risk-free, but I have great respect for, for the voice that you've developed. I think you and Madigan have put together such a cool little podcast that deals with these issues. So I just, I respect the hell out of you. I'm so glad we had the chance to talk to them. Thank you. That means so much to me. I mean,

[00:49:52] I've had, I've gone back and forth a lot on if that is actually good for me or not, like to put myself out there and to be so vulnerable and just raw about my recovery. But there's been times where I was like, okay, too much put on the brakes, but I've also been, you know, reestablishing my own gauges of like, does this work for me or not? Is this too much? Like, is this too triggering or

[00:50:17] too traumatic? And I've taken a long break from kind of exposing myself in that way. And I feel like when I do come back to do on camera advocacy work, I want it to be more about recovery and healing rather than having to revisit trauma. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's where I'm at.

[00:50:41] Well, for what it's worth, I think anything that you're willing and able to offer is valuable and is helpful to people. So I am also very grateful for what you have shared already and whatever you may share in the future. And absolutely, like as long as it's good for you, that's always your barometer, right? And my family. And yeah, so like, and that's a new thing for me to consider now is

[00:51:06] like, I've got a wonderful husband, I have a beautiful, healthy baby. I have to be well for myself, but also for them. And that's absolutely, that keeps me, that keeps my mental health a little like easier to stabilize, just like not being alone all the time. Yeah. And it's grounding, like the needs of your family are so immediate that it is a way to kind of take you back into, like we were talking about that sense of reality, right? Like that reality is just going to smack

[00:51:35] you in the face like all day long. So there's no escaping it. No, because like PTSD will just hijack you and all of a sudden like you're triggered and you are just not yourself anymore and you're not functioning in the same way that you're used to. And I have, I had to think of tools to get me back into my body so that I could just start functioning normal again. Yeah. You bet. Yeah. So thank you.

[00:52:00] No, thank you. So as, as we close, I have one very important question for you. Yes. I mentioned, what am I eating for dinner? That's actually exactly what I was thinking. It's related. It's related. Enchiladas. God bless. Yes. Yeah. Your love affair with food just weaves in and out of your story. When some of my, some of the most relatable parts, I mean, of course it's, it's in some ways a very stressful story to tell and obviously to experience, but some of the most

[00:52:27] relatable parts were the moments where you either needed comforting or soothing or whatever. Like you like, it's like, I was at a wedding and I shoved a cupcake into my face or there's a specific part where you were like, when it was all falling apart and you were like, all I could think was I need Swedish fish. I just need the Swedish fish. And I'm like, that was so relatable. What is your, your favorite, shall we say, comfort food right now on the one hand? And what is your favorite, uh, we'll say

[00:52:54] favorite dish at any restaurant in the world? If you could just make it materialize right here. Okay. What would it be? All right. My favorite comfort fruit right now is my husband makes fresh bread at his restaurant. So I always go by and get a chunk of focaccia and then I come home and I put huge slabs of butter on it, salty cold butter. And for me, bread and butter, like there's literally nothing better sometimes just soothes my soul. And my favorite dish, if I could materialize it right now,

[00:53:24] Oh, probably pizza from New York city. Yes. See, you mean, you mean Chicago. I'm a New Yorker. You mean Chicago. Oh no. I can't, I can't. It's people from New York city. I just love it. It's a casserole. No way. Yeah. I mean, I won't say no to a Chicago deep dish. I love cheese, but I am, I'm loyal to New York pizza. Well, if, if, and when you're ever passing through Chicago, let me know. We'll get,

[00:53:53] I will. We'll get a pie. We'll get a pie. Awesome. Thank you so much, India. Thank you. Take care. We'll see you later. Thanks for listening to this episode. We hope that you have found it enlightening and we'd be so, so grateful if you'd share it with the seekers in your life. We all know at least one, right? Until our next episode, you can find us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Seek Safely.

[00:54:23] Connect with Dr. Glenn Patrick Doyle at Dr. Doyle Says and me, Jean, at Jean C. Brown on Twitter. Feel free to send us an email, info at seeksafely.org. To support Seek Safely, you can make a secure donation on our website, seeksafely.org slash donate. The Seek Safely podcast is produced by Citizens of Sound.